Conflict Resolution for Non-Profit Associations

Hi Welcome to MediatorPodcast.com - A podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration.  My name is Melissa Gragg, a divorce mediation expert in St. Louis Missouri.  

 During this episode we will discuss Conflict Resolution for a non-profit association with a former IRS auditor Mike Gregory. Mike is a mediator in Minneapolis Minnesota, author of 13 books regarding various topics and creator of the collaboration effect ®. He is a frequent speaker and uses mediation techniques to deescalate situations. 

Welcome Mike!!   

Conflict Resolution and Civil Discourse for a not for profit association 

1. What is mediation or when would you need a mediator? 
2. A not for profit has an underlying perspective of service over self-interest, and often has to work with some people that are difficult to work with on a regular basis.  What is some advice you may have as an expert in conflict resolution? 
3. Let’s talk about some mediation techniques and terminology –should we focus be on beliefs or values? 
4. How can you de-escalate situations when one party comes in with a strong belief and position? 
5. Do you have any insights related to listening – is this one of the most importation conflict resolution skills? 
6. Can you share some insights from your pocket guide on The Collaboration Effect? 
7. If someone wanted to reach you for assistance or to be a speaker, how can they reach you? 

 Melissa Gragg
CVA, MAFF, CDFA
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues
http://www.BridgeValuation.com
Cell: (314) 541-8163
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC
melissa@bridgevaluation.com 

 Michael Gregory Consulting, LLC | The Collaboration Effect
Direct: 651.633-5311
w: mikegreg.com | collabeffect.com 
e: mg@mikegreg.com 

Transcript

Melissa Gragg: 0:00

Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation and negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a divorce mediation expert in St. Louis Missouri. During this episode, we will discuss conflict resolution for nonprofit associations with former IRS auditor. Mike Gregory. Mike is a mediator in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is the author now of 13 books regarding various topics, and he also has created the collaboration effect. He's a frequent speaker and uses mediation techniques to deescalate situations. Welcome Mike, how are you?

Mike Gregory: 0:41

I'm great. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Melissa Gragg: 0:44

Yeah. So we kind of chose this topic because you do a lot of kind of conflict resolution. I don't know if you call it mediation or call it conflict resolution, but you're brought in to do a lot of facilitating communications with parties that may not agree. And so just for our listeners kind of creating a reference point, let's just talk about what is mediation and or when would you need a mediator? What types of situations?

Mike Gregory: 1:17

Well, mediation is really a process where parties come together and work together to resolve an issue. And they bring on someone to facilitate that process. It's called a meeting either, but the parties make all the decisions themselves in arbitration and arbitrator makes a decision in a, a legal battle. A judge or jury make a decision in mediation. The parties come together facilitated by a mediator and the mediator helps the parties listen to each other and work together to try to resolve the issue. There are three major types of mediation, evaluative, facilitative, and transformative under evaluative mediation. Oftentimes that's an attorney or retired judge who gets involved in the legal nuances of the issue between the parties. And we'll come back and actually say to the parties. I think if you go to court, this is what I think will happen. So some folks don't even consider that mediation who are purists in mediation, but that's evaluative mediation. And then the parties can work together with that evaluative mediator to figure out what they might want to do to try to resolve the case without going to court. The second type of facilitation, uh, at the second type of mediation is called facilitative mediation. And that situation two parties come together. They have a specific issue. They want to work on in order to resolve the issue, hopefully without going to court, for example. And when they come together to discuss this issue, the mediator typically sits down with both sides ahead of time, independently and determines, is this a good case for mediation? And if it is mediator would say, yes, let's go forward. And if not, the mediator may say, there's no reason to go forward. Now come through with an example on that, just a moment. But if both parties seem to be amenable, if they're willing to move off of their position, they're willing to discuss the issues. They're willing to present what their interests are. And they want to work collaboratively to resolve the issue between the two that's facilitated mediation. I do a fair amount of that. And then there's, what's called transformative mediation. You oftentimes see that applied in family law, where in transformative mediation that are out to transform the relationship between the two parties, if they don't happen to solve the specific issue. That's okay. We're trying to transform relationships between the two people. If we can do that, then we can move on to try to facilitate whatever the issues might be. So for example, in family law, they might, the mediator may come forward and say, let's focus on the children. What's going to happen with the children. And if both parties can deescalate and develop an element of trust, focusing on the children, that's a very positive way to then move forward with the other elements associated with divorce. But now coming back to the facilitated mediation, I wanted to share a story with you. I was involved with a fortune 100 company. There was almost a billion dollars, involves a valuation issue. There's a billion dollars in tax involved. So think of the valuation issue was very significant. And in that situation I met with one of the, uh, the parties and with particular group, there was the CEO of the company. There were three members of the board that was four. And then there were a total of, uh, eight other attorneys and other folks that were there. And I discussed with them what they'd like to do going forward and what their position was and what their perspectives were. And when I got done with that, I then contacted the corporate counsel that fortune 100 company. And I said, I can't mediate this case. And they said, why not? I said, because your CEO is so positioned based, the CEO wants a hundred percent wants. Revenge wants the other side punished, and doesn't want to move off of the position of your firm. If that's the case, you need to go to court. But I tell you what I I'm willing to be your mediator. If two things happen, one, the CEO is not part of your team. And two, if we reached an agreement with the mediation between the two parties and your team, that the CEO will not undermine the decision, that's reached amicably between the two parties and the corporate counsel listened to that and said, okay, Hey, we can do that. Who's going to tell the CEO. And I said, that's not my job. My job is to let you know, it's going to take, if you want me to mediate in this case. And two weeks later, I got a call back and the call was from that corporate counsel. And they said, yes, Mike, we want you to mediate on this case. So I went forward and mediated on that case as a facilitative mediator. And we set it up for eight hours, uh, it actually lasted 12 hours. And in the end, we had a signed agreement between the two parties on the overall, uh, issues and what was going to take place going forward. Now, they still had to bring it back to their legal teams and dot the I's and cross the T's. But we had an agreement in principle with major points that it was up to the attorneys to draft that up at a later date for a contract between the two parties. But it means both parties have to be willing to move off their position in order to have a successful mediation. And then there are other times when folks bring me on board and they say, Mike, we want you to be a mediator. And I talked with one party and after I talk with them, they'll say, actually, Mike, we don't want you to be the mediator wanting to be part of our negotiating team. So then I'm involved with looking at our side and how strong it is and where we have weaknesses and point out. We have weaknesses. I've never found anybody else. I've never found a case yet that's a hundred percent and zero. I just haven't found it. So I point out weaknesses that we have just by asking questions. And then I look at the other side with what they have, and I ask questions there. And here I'm like the person who asks the 600 pound gorilla questions. Oftentimes I don't even know what that is when I get started, but I'll bring that up in the discussion. Now for the first time it's been thrown out on the table, but timing is everything and understanding the parties and who's who, and being quiet and listening and letting the parties talk is really the key.

Melissa Gragg: 7:36

And I think that there is some, you know, in any ma mediation, you're bringing two parties together, whether they're in divorce, whether it's a workplace dispute or an issue. And I think that some of the misnomer of people is they think that the mediator is going to come in and solve all the problems. But realistically, that is a person that is helping you or the parties come up with different ideas and ways to it's sort of like brainstorming for possible solutions. It's way more complex. But in theory, you kind of first have to get that, uh, those parties to understand that you're not here to tell them what to do, that you're here to help them think about ways that they can communicate and, um, you know, get collaborate to come up with a solution that may not be the best for both parties, but it certainly is a way to move forward.

Mike Gregory: 8:39

There's a very common model that I use. I use it different ways and different forums, but sometimes I've asked folks, I'll sit down with them and I'll say, that's after I've left first. I have to listen to them and am I listening to them? I build trust. And then I'll say, let's just make it simple too. There's one issue just for simplicity sake. And I'll ask them to say, okay, with this given issue, what are the facts? Okay, what are the facts for that issue? Now what's the emotion you have around this issue because sometimes people are very emotionally attached to a given issue. Sometimes they don't care that much. There could be multiple issues again, and focusing on one, but, uh, give me what your feelings are related to the issue. Now, what your feelings are about the other party that they're an sob. And I don't like them. That's not, I want to, what are your feelings around this issue and why? And they're very personal reasons. Oftentimes why they have these feelings. Then I ask them what their interests are. And I asked them to write this up in a document. And then I ask them, I take a look at it and I, I edit it. Cause it's usually has language in which is neutral. It's very biased. And I said, can I edit it? And I make it into a more neutral document. Then I ask them if, if, as I talked to them about it, when I ask them, if I can help them narrow it down to one piece of paper, eight and a half by 11. So even on that billion dollar issue, we got that entire billion dollar issue on one piece of paper, eight and a half by 11 for each issue, there are only a few issues there. I bet I've done this where we've got up to 12 issues, but for that given issue, what are the facts? What's the emotion around the issue, the feelings, and what are your interests and jot that down to one piece of paper and make it neutral. What that does, what that does is it forces them to think. And what are the biggest parts? There's all kinds of detail, but one of the biggest parts, and I'll ask them to say, what are the three biggest elements on a specific issue for you to help them really narrow it? You can get into all the weeds and remember something. And remember when that happened, you know, let's just focus on the issue and that helps them to really come into a mediation, having thought about it, written it down, and then I'll ask them. And most of the time this works, I'll ask them if I can share this with the other side, now I've helped them edit it and make it neutral. And now we're going to share that with the other side. So each side can read where that our site's coming from it for the first time they typically actually look at the other side is not the devil incarnate and somebody I hate, but okay. I didn't know. This person felt that way or, uh, could present this in such a neutral manner. Cause we've never been able to present this to each other without thinking we're going to have to fight with each other. So that helps set the tone where they're for the first time, really listening to each other. And that's, that's a start of the system.

Melissa Gragg: 11:32

Well, and I think that, you know, we've talked about a lot of different terms that people may not understand, but I think that most of the time, um, and we'll define some of them, but most of the time people first need to be heard, you know, so they have all of these issues and sometimes they just have to be heard. Like, you understand that you did this to me, you understand that, you know, I didn't feel good and that, and then you get down to the real issues once you can kind of be heard and say, okay, I can let those things go. But, um, some of the, the terminology that we've talked about, beliefs, values, uh, positions, you know, let's, let's break some of these down a little bit because to most people, all of these terms seem like the same term, you know, and they, there's not a distinguishing piece of it, but in mediation, these things become very important of how you communicate with people during the mediation.

Mike Gregory: 12:33

Well, let me, let me take a, uh, an issue that everybody will agree is divisive in nature, abortion. And if I see abortion, we'd already know there are two sides where both sides stand relative to that, right? And both sides know their position. Their positions are based on very strong beliefs that go very deep with them. On the other hand, they both have values and we, we want to focus always on values and not beliefs. So in values, we talk about respect and trust and being straightforward and open and accepting and being responsible with one another. And what on this topic we're going to talk about, I'm going to begin to talk about values, things come up. Like we don't want to have unwanted pregnancies. We don't want to have kids who are going to be throw away kids because parents don't want them. How do we, how do we help nurture homes where people are going to be loved as they grow up? When you begin to focus on the values behind this folks can work together to find ways to resolve what those issues might be. There was an ex I'm from Minnesota. There was an experiment on what I just talked about here in the Minnesota legislature with the governor and the house and the Senate on this type of conversation. And that allowed them to proceed in a way that they could one talk to each other, which is very, which there wasn't good dialogue before that, but talk to each other and then focus on what their values were. And then what can we do to address the areas we feel that were in common with one another. So I just bring that up as values. I've mediated between gangs. These are people who've killed each other. Right? And I have a common interest question that I asked relative to listening. And that is what would you like to have happen? And with one gang leader, he couldn't tell me what he wants. He didn't, I don't think he knew what he wanted. He just knew he wanted to stop, but he had lost a close relative and other relatives who've been murdered. And so had the other side. And in this process, as I worked with him at one point, this gang leader said, if I reached an agreement with the other side, I'm dead because members of my own gang would kill me. And he said, if I don't reach an agreement with the other side, I'm dead. Cause the other side we'll find a way to kill me. So either way, I'm dead within a year. Mike, can you put me in a witness protection program? I said, I can't do that. I have no authority for that. No, I can't do that. But let's work with this a minute who wants to kill you within your own gang? If you reach an agreement and you identify two people's names. So I said, well, right now you're negotiating on behalf of your game. What if we bring on you plus those two? And then let's bring on three other people for a total of six. And with the six, you six collectively are going to work on the negotiation with the other game. And they came up with a let's call it a peace treaty between the two parties on a division of where the line will be between these two gangs, which allowed a deescalation and no longer violence between the two different parties. So even in a very difficult situation like that, and I've got a host of questions that I've got something called pocket guide with the collaboration effect, but it's about connecting relationships. That person had to really believe me and trust me. So I had to do a lot of homework ahead of time to learn a lot about this person in the background and law enforcement could tell me all the negatives about this guy, both in the community. There are people had lots of positives about this guy too. And so learning people are not zero one, black and white right and wrong people are we're human. We have good parts and bad parts within us. And part of it is reaching out to the values of the good part to work with the other party and both sides in this case to resolve those issues. Now, those two parties were never in the same building at the same time, just because of a conflict there. So they were brought in at different times and had discussions. And this, this lasted a long time. That little soundbite I gave you less than a year, but eventually we had a peace between these two parties.

Melissa Gragg: 16:48

Well, and when I try to look at, um, beliefs, values and positions, I kind of talked to people like the position is the top one. I have a position that I need to stay in this house because of this school district, because this is where my family knows, this is what I love. And then there is a belief that this house will be the best. This house will be the best of every other house. And then if you go to the values and you get them down to that level, you can say, okay, well, but how would you feel in the house? Well, I want to feel safe. I want to feel protected. I want to feel like I know people. And then, you know, we try to shift and say, okay, well, if you could have those same things, but be in a different house with that still work. And I think that, you know, that's part of what you're kind of talking about. People are so heavy into their positions that they can't see that there's common grounds at the, the values section of, uh, you know, you and I may have the same value of safety of being in a comfortable house, but it could look very different. Um, and so that's what we kind of talk about in some of the mediations. Obviously you're talking about things that are even on a bigger scale, but it, it, it also introduces a concept that mediation is not just about when you're sitting down with the parties. You know, if you have a domestic violence or other types of violence involved, there are extreme protocols that you have to do to do anything in person or anything, even to, you know, have those people, not even in the same room, sometimes it's just caucus style. So people will be in different rooms and you're going between different rooms. But another thing, um, that I think you, you kind of led into was really about this listening concept. And it's one of the most important, um, conflict resolution skills, but talk more about it because as I've talked to you through this process, it has really, you know, listening is always important. We talk about it in business. We talk about it, but it is very different when you're talking about it as a way to mediate conflict and to communicate, you know, listening is sort of the absence normally of communication. When in reality, when I talked to you, it's almost the essence of communication. And so talk to me more about how you use listening to, to help people.

Mike Gregory: 19:31

Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to bring up three people to you. First is Erica Garns and she wrote a book called the brain friendly workplace. Then I'm going to bring up another person. John monitor. He's the associate Dean of the medical school at Michigan state university. And I spent a day with him looking at brain scans and different things. And then I want to bring up Rick Hanson. Rick Hanson is with the greater good science center at the university of California, Berkeley. He's a neuroscientist and a psychologist. The reason I bring up the greater good science center, if you go to that site and you can put in key topics, let's just say listening and neuroscience, you can get the latest thoughts on that written in lay language that you and I can understand. Now I'm not a neuroscientist, but I work with them. I've been working with them for a number of years. It's now been over seven years. So I come back in a couple of soundbites. The top of our brain STEM is the Magna was about the size of your thumbnail, uh, or an almond. And you have two of those at the top of the brainstem. And when you start to get angry, you produce certain chemicals and hormones that they flood the bloodstream with those chemicals and hormones. You have six to 10 seconds to stop that from happening. If you don't, those chemicals and hormones are in the bloodstream and they'll stay with you for up to 22 hours or until you have a sleep cycle. So once they're in your bloodstream, they're there. And now it's very easy for you to go off again and get angry because they're there. But on the other hand, in the front of your brain is the prefrontal cortex. And that's only 5% of the mass, but it's 25% of the energy. And nobody multitasks. The brain does one thing at a time. You can turn off and on quickly for different things and we can overload the prefrontal cortex with too much. So they've learned, you can clear the prefrontal cortex with 10 minutes of mindfulness or meditation, prayer, or reflection. It's very healthy to do that for at least 10 minutes a day, but the prefrontal cortex will override the Magdalene. So knowing that when you start to feel that trigger, you start to get angry. Sometimes like if you're working, you start to get angry. You're not going to let yourself lose your temper. So you force yourself to not let that show and get angry. You're going to play inside. You might be churning, but on the outside, you're looking calm. Well, the prefrontal cortex overrode your Magnolia when that happened. So now when you're in a conflict, I'm back in here knowing this, when you begin to feel the trigger there's things you can do as a minimum, you could just say like, when you can talk to yourself, let's call it. Um, there's a process. And the process is with talking to yourself in the third person, you can call me, Mike, don't let yourself get angry. Mike, stay calm and reason. They don't know why. If you use your own name, it hurts, helps better than just saying, I'm not going to let myself get angry. But if I say Mike, don't let yourself get angry. That helps. I wrote an article on this. That's in Hong Kong lawyer. There's a lot of things. I wrote an article on this with how you do this process. But an optimum method is what's called the five 15, 10 rule. And the five, 15, 10 rule is breathe in for five seconds. Hold it for 15 and let it out for 10. We need to, you do that. You give yourself a surge of oxygen. If you do this several times, you actually put more oxygen in the brain that has a calming effect on yourself. Actually, I'm going to do this with you. So I'm going to ask you, is it an action item? I'm gonna use my watch. I say go. I want you to breathe in for five seconds. Okay? And then I want you to hold it for 15. So ready? Set. Breathe in slowly. Expand the diaphragm. Nice deep breath. And now hold it. You're not used to holding your breath. So 15 seconds is going to seem like a long time for someone who hasn't held their breath like this on a regular basis. You're about halfway there. And when I say now, I want you to let out very slowly for 10 seconds. Ready, set now. So let it out very slowly for 10 seconds. We're almost there over halfway and yeah, that's the five 15, 10. Cool. Now with that, it's not like if you're a coffee drinker, it's not like you just got a chunk of caffeine. No, they do this multiple times, two or three times. And the fact that you're concentrating on it, what are you doing? You're not talking, you're listening. So somebody's starting to tick you off. And you know that the triggers there, I can do the five 15, 10. Well, they don't even know you're doing it. You're just do it yourself. You're giving yourself a plug of oxygen and the brain. Now, sometimes you don't have time for that. So you're going into a meeting. You're walking down the hall. You've always heard, take it deep breath or take three deep breaths. Those are fun alternatives of what you could do. But by doing this, you can calm yourself. And the key then is if I can calm myself, calm the fire, then what I can do is I can focus. And I could tell myself, focus on listening. I have a post it note, right? A year bottom of my screen. Now on this post it note, it says focus on being interested. Not interesting. If I'm trying to be interesting, I'm going to tell you a lot, but if I'm going to listen, I'm going to focus on being interested. I'm going to ask questions and because I'm asking questions of the other party, they now are having the chance to be heard. And we know from neuroscience, if you've been heard, you're more receptive to listen to the other person. So when I give a keynote on this topic, I'll say the keynote is, it's not about me, but then I say, it's all about we, it begins with me in the beginning with me is I need to be there to ask questions. Right? You talked earlier about collaboration effect and I've got this little pocket guide. Anybody sends me an email. I'll send him this pocket guide in electronic form. But inside here, it says for listening an activity, listen with a hundred percent attention, ask open, ended questions and check for understanding. They might say, well, how do I do that? Well then under listening actively, I have a series of questions. I want to read them all to you. But the first one I've already used, what would you like to have happen? That's my favorite question. Then I have, what worries or concerns do you have? What would it take for you to feel satisfied? What have we not covered that you want me to know? Cause we have, this is as we go along for a while, what can I do to help you? Are there other concerns or problems? Those are the kinds of questions to ask and listening. And then once you've heard something, we've all took a class at one point in grade school with how to write a newspaper article. Who, what, when, where, why and how think about the who or the, where or the what or the why? Why is my favorite question? Why, why or a statement I'll use is tell me more, tell me more. I don't quite understand. Tell me more. And by doing that, people will express to you what they want to say. And once they fully been heard, they feel like they've really been heard, then they're more receptive to listen to you or the other party.

Melissa Gragg: 26:50

Well, because it, and it's, it's very interesting because you, a lot of what we're doing as a mediator is listening to both sides. I think that also part of our facilitation of that mediation is understand that when you're in high conflict, sometimes you're not listening. You're just trying to prove your position. You're trying to support your beliefs. You know, you're trying to win. You're trying to, to prove your, um, why you've been wrong, then things like that. And I think that that's why we, we will constantly, um, reiterate what we've heard. So we hear something and say, okay, what I've heard you say is a, B and C. Now, why is that truth for you? Or why? You know, like all of those questions I think are great for the mediator. And it's also about, um, trying to help the parties listen, but there's also, you know, when you're talking about conflict in a mediation, you're always, I mean, I don't, I don't really think we've ever been through one personally where it didn't get escalated at some point, you know, whether it was really yelling, you know, like a lot of times you set the parameters up at the beginning of how we're going to conduct this mediation and how we're going to be respectful. But sometimes, you know, voices get raised. You're, you're working through the psychology of working through something doesn't just mean, okay, I'm done with it. You know, it's, it's having those conversations in a safe environment. But if you have a party that comes in with a really strong belief or situation or position and starts to escalate it, what are some of the things that you do and not just listening, but other things that you do to kind of deescalate and get them to continue to listen and discuss the issues at hand?

Mike Gregory: 28:49

Well, one of the things you just commented on, I'm just going to reiterate it with just slightly different terminology, but help bring this home is when the other party has spoken. There's a lot of emotion there. So when they put forward their facts on a given issue and their feelings about it and their interests, they're passionate. So oftentimes what I do is I listen to that and I'm going to paraphrase, summarize, and empathize with them. And then I'm going to say what I heard them say, my goal is to say it better than they said it themselves. That's my goal. And I'm going to reframe that in neutral terms. And when they hear it in neutral terms, they go, yeah, yeah. That's, that's what I mean, that's it? That's what I mean. But if someone has the Magdalenes kicked in, they flooded themselves. They're angry. They're, they're yelling, they're upset. The first thing you have to do is you want to make sure you don't take it personally. You know, you have to decide whether you're gonna get angry or not. And what I immediately, I've made a, I've made a decision no matter what happens. I'm not going to get angry. I'm not going to get upset. I have to be this active listener that we just talked about. I need to slow myself down. I'm a fast talker. I get going. I'm passionate. I'm talking about the things I talk about. I have to force myself to slow down. When I go into a mediation, I pray the prayer of st. Francis of Assisi. And in that prayer, there are some lines of saying, seek not so much to be consoled as to console seek, not so much to be understood as to understand. And I put myself in that mind frame before I go into the mediation, because I want to center myself and control the fire and slow myself down. And I want to be there to be empathetic with the party I'm working with. So that as they hear me, I'm just the person who's here to help. I'm not trying to make anybody right or wrong them right or wrong. I'm just trying to help. I pass no judgment. It's really key that I'm not judgemental. I'm a, I'm a judgmental kind of guy. If I took Myers, Briggs, Meyers, Briggs testing, E N T J the last letter J I'm judged. I write, I reach judgements right away. It's easier for me to do that. Make a decision and go, but you know what? That's a major fault. So when I was a manager, I came through and said, I really, when I learned this, I had to slow myself down and make sure I went back and ask other people for opinions and circle back around before I made this decision, because I can miss things. I have blind spots. Now, as a mediator, I look at it as I'm not making any judgment, they're making all the decisions. I tried to keep myself to be courteous. I want to work with the parties so that they are seen yes. If I ask them questions and I get them to say yes to questions back up here with neuroscience, the fact that they are seeing yes, produces certain chemicals and hormones, which make them more receptive towards moving towards reconciliation and to get myself through it. Just like I talked about earlier, Mike, calm yourself down. Mike, don't get upset. Mike demonstrate list. I talked to myself with positive self talk. So don't take it personally. You decide whether to get angry. You need to use active listening, slow down, be empathetic, be aware of your own triggers. Don't pass judgment, always be courteous, work with the other party to say yes and give yourself positive self talk, because that will help you get through the process.

Melissa Gragg: 32:12

Well, and I think that a couple of things that you've said is very interesting because, um, we're doing some mediation training, uh, recently. And because of the environment that we're in, everybody has heightened anxiety or concerns in their personal life. And we talked about as a mediator. I think that if you're going into a situation that already has conflict, this isn't about you. This isn't, you know, like if you've had a bad day, if you're on the brink of, you know, some issues, you really do have to get your mind as the mediator, right before you go into that situation because, um, it does get volatile sometimes. And if you're the one that's, you know, losing your cool, losing your temper because of that outside factors that are happening, uh, in some contexts, I think that people would it be understandable, but in the other, you're there to provide a service. And it really isn't about you, um, which is hard for some people to kind of get on. But when you were talking about some of the questions that you have as suggestions of what people should ask, this is from a guy, the collaboration effect, a pocket guide that you've created that people have access to that gets them thinking about how these questions could parlay into their mediation. Are there more insights that you have from this effect? Cause this is, you know, when you talk about neuroscience, this is really deep rooted in how people communicate and how people, uh, start to resolve when they disagree. You know? So tell us more about maybe how we could get access to this as well as what other insights would it provide for us?

Mike Gregory: 34:12

So the collaboration effect is really about three things. It's about connecting relationships, listening, actively that we've talked about and then educating judiciously. Those are the three things. And what this does is this leads to building bridges, to negotiate closure. Now in corporate America, what I've learned is the people in the C suite, they want closure, but oftentimes in larger organizations, the vice presidents, they want certain recognition and rewards and bonuses tied to their given work in their given division or their entity or whatever it might be. So that's taught me, I need to have a decision maker on those kinds of issues, where I have the C suite people there who aren't closure. And then you talked about people getting angry. Typically in my business sessions, they don't overtly become angry and banging on the table, but sometimes people are gonna lose positions or they're gonna lose face, or they're gonna lose bonuses. So they have a lot at stake personally, but they're not going to demonstrate that anger. They may try to subterfuge the mediation process or negotiation process because of something that has a personal benefit to them. So what I've learned is the first thing we have to do with the parties that are there is really do our homework on connecting relationships. That means on social media, that means within your network. I want to know everything I can about them and find ways in which I can connect with them. I teach a class at the MBA school, university of Minnesota Carlson school of management. They have a course which is involved with mediation and conflict resolution. I'm not a professor, but I'm a lecturer. And I come in with two different three hour sessions. And the first session I give them some background on me. And I tell them for our next session, I want you to do the research on me, on social media and from what I've told you. And I want you to tell me how you would try to connect with me next week when we come in here. So it's a Thursday night class, the next Thursday, they have to get there right up into me by by noon. And then I read through it. And then I look for, did you find ways to properly connect with me now, I've been doing this five years and what I've watched and this, the students have gotten so much better this on social media. So I'm in Minnesota and I live about a mile and a half away from the state fairgrounds. Okay. So like one of the students last year said, well, Mike, I would bring up to you. Have you ever been to the state fair? And I'll see this person looked in geography and where I am. And I said, yes. And then it's all a person had to ask me. And I said, that was a really good question for trying to really have a relationship with me and connect. Cause I said, yes, I go there twice a year. My wife and I had been going there for over 35 years. And we go there with our children. We can now go there with our grandchildren. So I'm talking about all this stuff about connecting with why I like the Minnesota state fair. What you've done is you've found a way to connect with me that we are now people and you're letting me talk. So what are you doing? You're listening. So connecting relationship is number one, listening actively is second. And then third, you have to do your homework. Your homework is how do you educate judiciously? And unlike on TV, where one is going to overpower the other and all these things take place and arguing. I come back with when you, and you're an expert witness Melissa, and I've been an expert witness in court. When you go before a court, you want to build trust with that decision maker, that judge or that jury. And when you do that, you want to relate to them. You want to present things, how they want to hear it. You don't want to tell them that I'm right. You want to tell them, this is what I did. This is why I did what I did. This is a very, this is the reasonableness you're presenting. You're not seeing, that'd be presenting how reasonable you are as a person, how good you are as a person, how you can smile and relate to them, how you can be there just as another person. Like they would leave to go have a drink with you at the end of the trial and say, wow, I like that, Melissa, Greg, you know, well, you want to build that relationship so that when you're educating them, you're there to help the decision maker make a decision when that happens, that allows you then to begin the negotiation process and the negotiation process. You need to think about your position, need to think about their position. And somewhere between those two you have. If we don't reach an agreement, here we go to the next level, whatever that might mean, the IRS that's going from exam two appeals or appeals to counsel, okay? It mean elegant within management, from the examiner to the examiner and the manager, or to the second level manager, different folks that you may have to take to another level. But along the way you said, this is my best alternative to a negotiated agreement. The acronym for that is BATNA the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. So let's just say I'm a zero or party. A is a zero and party B is at 100 in party a they've talked with the client and said, if we don't get at least 45%, we're going to go to the next level. So their BATNA is 45%. I then work with my clients as a matter of negotiation and say, let's develop three other computations. We want to make a computation for 45% and a computation for three others between zero and 45%. So now we have a total of five different computations as part of the negotiation process I can connect. I can actively listen. I educated traditionally with position where I'm coming from. And then I ask the other party with what we've discussed. This is what I'm now thinking, whatever it is. But I want to hear what you have to say. And I've done this with issues, even with the IRS on an issue where the IRS said, said my client owed$16 million and they did their homework extremely well on the educating judiciously and got the IRS to say yes, eight times. And then the question was offered. Our appraiser said, this number is between three 30, 5% and IRS. You were at 10%. Well, we presented eight reasons why that number could be higher. And we now think it should be 35%, but before we go any further, what do you think there was a pause in the IRS agent responded and said, could you live with 34% to which my client said, yes, I could. So it went from$16 million, Oh, to a$4 million refund. Well, that attorney that I worked with before we started this whole process, thought the whole thing, he was kind of bumped, but they're willing to try it. And it worked. Then the attorney said, wow, come and talk to our law firm. So I came in, as I say this, this is several different cases mixed together. As I'm not talking about a particular client, but said, come and talk to the law firm. They had 200 attorneys and they came and spoke to 100 attorneys. Then after that, they said, Oh, I went to Harvard. I belong to the heart, every club in Boston. So I've been invited out there twice to give to our presentations on just this collaboration. In fact, I just talked about and how it's based on neuroscience. It works, but you have to do a whole host of things that doesn't just happen. So connecting relationships, social media network, et cetera, and find some way to try and connect, to listen actively three, educate judiciously to negotiate closure. So you're going to build a bridge to negotiate closure, even a famous general from China, send suit on a book called the art of war, which has presented at all of our military academies. It says, build your opponent, a golden bridge to retreat, a client to retreat across. So I look at that as that's exactly what you want to do. You want to build a bridge for them to retreat save face so that they can retreat. We never have to go to battle and war.

Melissa Gragg: 42:06

Well, and I think that that is very helpful information. I think that when we started this, we were trying to kind of create ways of how mediation could be used, uh, in not for profit groups. And, and I think we've given a variety of ways. You've given some really good stories that we've talked about because a lot of nonprofit groups will deal with boards of directors and they will deal with populations that maybe they're servicing that are different diversity, different demographics. Then maybe the people that are on the boards or running the operations is there are, you know, are there any more, um, things that nonprofits can do using some of these mediation techniques? Or should they focus on any of these aspects because you think that it really helps them the most,

Mike Gregory: 43:03

The answer, my perspective is yes, I worked with several different boards. So with the board of directors and when I worked with them, I've asked them, for example, well, who's your ideal volunteer. This is working. This is now working with a series of whole bunch of boards. I was involved with strategic planning, with specific companies and also with a group of them. And with this group, you know, one person said, well, I liked the volunteer that the retire they're willing to put in 40 hours a week, every week, come in and volunteer for an organization. And then I said to that, our folks there and where do the rest of you think are those out there? They said, well, they were, but they're not anymore. And the baby boomers that are out there, generation X coming along and generation, Y millennials, they want to come in and do something for a short period of time. They want to see some results and those kinds of volunteers, they really don't exist anymore. So, and that's just me asking questions. And then as I asked them, you know, what is your mission? What is your vision? They have these, what are your goals? And we talk about the strategies of where they're going and why. And they come up with various tactics and then I ask them who their clientele are. And oftentimes the not-for-profits, the boards are very white. Okay. And the clientele, oftentimes with working with lower income are often very diverse people of color. And so I asked them, this is what you want to provide. What is it that they need and want? And how do we know that? And are you coming into collaborate? Collaborate means we're working on something together with a goal that we both have in common. And the not-for-profit comes in with, this is what we're going to do for you, which is not. I'm a partner with you. I want to work with you. I want to connect with you. I want to listen to you. I want to educate you with what we can do and how can we negotiate closure, but rather I'll tell you what we're going to do. And that's the wrong approach. So as I talk with them, they may need the focus of a given group may have been XYZ. I love a commercial right now for AARP American association of retired people. And their commercial says it all started with a retired school teacher who was living in a chicken coop. That's how art started. We get a commercial here. That's running on this all the time on this. Well, think about what does art mean to you today? Oh, I'm going to get coupons for, uh, various places. Cause I'm over age 55 or I can't remember the age 50 or 55. I'm over that. So it doesn't matter anymore. And I'm an art member, but the point of this is our pay has changed and they'll offer things within the community for their art members. But they're still all about taking care of our members and especially those who are lower income. So I come back with, you have to change with not necessarily what you want to provide, but with what do they need and how do you know that it's because you sit down with them and you work with them and you connect with them. If you're just going to come in on the once, one time, once in a great while and do something and go away, that may be okay for that volunteer. But what about your organization and how do they know you care and that you want to be there for them next time. And can you help them also find other resources of things they might need? So there's one group. I helped them planning here in the twin cities, hands on twin cities, they coordinate, I dunno, some 200, 250 volunteer organizations to say we don't, but we know somebody that does, or we can get you to the right source. Well, that's listening to your clientele. So, and then sometimes looking at conflicts and not-for-profits, you have people who donate. They donate. They think they now have power because they have power. They want to tell you what you need to do, which may not be what your clientele want. So what do you need to do with them? You need to connect with them. You need to listen to them. You need to educate them. And that will help deescalate the situation so that you can work with those big donors that have specific goals and say, but here's what they really need or want based on what you see on the ground, which may cause them to change their focus. But you don't go in there and tell them that's not what we're going to do. Cause that's not what they want. This is what they want. That will be met with a negative response. But by working through the collaboration effect with that major donor or other volunteers that come in and say, this is what I think we should do. Listen to them, hear what they have to say through time, educate them and bring them on board with this is what we're about. And maybe this is not for them. And it may be, you'll get somebody who's a really passionate, dedicated volunteer, because they want to go forward with this organization going forward.

Melissa Gragg: 47:42

Awesome. So I could imagine a Medi nonprofit, or even for profit boards and groups would love to reach out to you either to be a speaker for their organization, um, or to maybe even work with some of their strategic planning. What are some of the ways that they can contact you? And what type of programs are you providing right now to the community?

Mike Gregory: 48:10

Well, I'd be happy to be a speaker and twice a month, I offer presentations at no cost. I'm happy to do it at no cost. I mean, I am a professional speaker, so I'm a keynote speaker. I'm also a workshops speaker and I get paid for those. I'm also a consultant and I do a certain amount of work with not-for-profits, which is a free, no charge. But then on the other hand, I also work with some not-for-profits on their strategic planning, which this does involve some time on my part. It's a longer term commitment and I help them over a longer period of time with their strategic planning. And in that sense, they get a better handle on their big picture with their board and what the staff, I mean, I'm doing that strategic planning typically with the staff and then a workshop about partial day, or it could be some partial days with the board, but the decision making is all done by them. Again, I'm facilitating with that process. My goal is to help them be better with what they're doing. I'll give you my direct phone number. My direct phone number is(651) 633-5311. And my email address is M G at Mike, greg.com, M I K E G R E g.com. And for my professional speaking, I've opened up a new business in that arena back in 2018. And that's at a website called collab effect.com, C O L L a B E F F E C T collab effect.com. There, you can see some videos of some presentations that I've made, and I can take a look at my blogs on either site with blogs that I write on weekly and over 250 blogs. If you go to Mike, greg.com, they're organized by different categories. So for example, one category is just working with difficult people and they're over 50 blocks of how to work with difficult people with different situations that might be helpful for the situation that you have with a given a party that you're working with or want to be working with and currently are in conflict with.

Melissa Gragg: 50:11

That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. And we're going to also provide ways that you can directly contact my, um, if you have questions, uh, you know, I've known him for many years. He has always been very open to having discussions with people. He's been very open with sharing his knowledge, um, and really helping people just understand how to work better with each other and his communication skills and tips. I think I have used, um, not only in mediation, just in general, sometimes I get too to the point, you know, like I go right in, let's get right to the meat of the problem. And a lot of times that's not as effective. And so after talking with Mike for years now, uh, I think some of those are some of the important pieces that I've, uh, accumulated was really connecting with people, really talking with them and really listening. And so I appreciate all of your, um, great tips and suggestions and we'll provide ways that people can reach out to you. So thank you so much for your time and I'm sure we'll see you again.

Mike Gregory: 51:24

Okay. Thank you very much, Melissa. My pleasure to be here today. Thank you.