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Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Divorcing with Intention: A Professional’s Guide to Intentional Divorce
Hi, welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a Valuation Expert and Divorce Financial Mediator in St. Louis, Missouri – specializing in divorce and partner disputes.
Today we are speaking about “Divorcing with Intention: A Professional's Guide to Intentional Divorce” with Leah Hadley, a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and Accredited Financial Counselor. Leah is based in Cleveland, Ohio and recently focused her practice on “Intentional Divorce Solutions” where she guides her clients to financial independence through thoughtful and strategic planning.
1. Can you explain what an intentional divorce is and how it differs from traditional divorce proceedings?
2. What inspired you to specialize in facilitating intentional divorces?
3. What steps can individuals or couples take toward making empowered decisions during their divorce?
4. Can you share examples of how empowered decision-making positively impacts the divorce process?
5. What are some common challenges people face when choosing to divorce with intention, and how can they overcome these obstacles?
6. Can you share a memorable case where intentional divorce made a significant difference?
Melissa Gragg
CVA, MAFF
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC
melissa@bridgevaluation.com
http://www.BridgeValuation.com
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com
https://www.valuationmediation.com
Cell: (314) 541-8163
Leah Hadley
www.intentionaldivorce.com
leah@greatlakesdfs.com
440.545.1001
http://www.linkedin.com/in/leahahadley
https://www.instagram.com/intentionaldivorcesolutions
https://www.facebook.com/greatlakesdfs
https://www.youtube.com/@intentionaldivorceinsights
Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Greg , and I'm evaluation expert and divorce Financial mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. Today we're speaking about divorcing with intention, a professional's Guide to in Intentional Divorce with Leah Hadley, a certified divorce financial analyst, and accredited financial counselor. Leah is based in Cleveland, Ohio, and recently focused her practice on Intentional Divorce Solutions, where she guides her clients to financial independence through thoughtful and strategic planning . Welcome, Leah . How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm well, Melissa. Thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1:Well, this is a great conversation because we have, you know, a lot of options in divorce and they could be collaborative, they could be mediation, they could be litigation, but all of those could dial back to how you and your current partner are gonna go through this process. So in this divorcing with intention, I think that we might need just a little bit of an explainer of what does this actually mean, or what do you feel that this means , um, of how you would do an intentional divorce and how maybe it differs from some of these traditional things. Because for the most part, people don't know what to expect anyway. So how do you layer this intentional divorce concept into it?
Speaker 2:Well, and that's exactly it, Melissa. People don't know what to expect, and so they're very much reacting to things very often throughout the divorce process. And intentional divorce is being about being proactive about looking at the process, not as a game of chess, but more as like a puzzle that we need to solve together. Um, and really understanding that throughout the process you have a lot of choices, even from that very beginning moment of how am I gonna go about this process? Right. You mentioned collaborative divorce mediation. There's traditional litigation. You know, you have to first make a decision, but a lot of people don't even make that decision. They just default to that traditional route because they're not necessarily educated or informed about the various options that are available to them . And so, intentional divorce is really about educating yourself and empowering yourself to look at this process as how am I going to solve the issues that need to be solved in front of me so that I can transition to the best next chapter of my life for myself , um, and for my family?
Speaker 1:Well, and some of it seems like taking, you know, taking charge in some capacity. Um, and I think that sometimes I'll also see people ask a lot of questions to their friends, right . And be like, well, how did you get this done? Or, how did that happen to you? And that's not always gonna be the best way to go about it. You also will start to cement your mind and like, well, my friend said that I should expect to get the house and that I'll have the kids all the time and I'll have this when that might not be the actual reality. Right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think that is a big issue that comes up when people are trying to look at the process from a proactive perspective, that they're listening to all these other people that maybe, you know, you're deciding that your , your current spouse is the enemy , um, and that you're creating this sort of combat zone and you're both kind of building up your teams. Um, but it doesn't have to be that way. And I think that's really important for people to know. Uh , no two divorces are alike. I mean, I work with so many different people. I cannot point to two divorces that are exactly the same. There are so many differences. Um, even if it's, you know, two people who make relatively the same amount of income and have children the same age, you know, still they're not gonna have the same divorce.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Yeah. And I think that, you know, in some context, even not having an opinion on how , you know, like maybe even stepping back, but even to get into, 'cause I , I think we're gonna , you know, talk more about , about what this really means, but you know, what kind of got you in this space, because this really is kind of a process that you are championing and coining and trying to get people to understand. So what inspired you to start to look at facilitating intentional divorces?
Speaker 2:Um, I've worked with so many people over the years who have felt so incredibly disempowered through the divorce process, and it's heartbreaking to witness. And a lot of cases, these are people who felt very in control of their lives prior to their divorce. They may have careers that they are very successful in , you know, they may be very involved in their children's lives in so many ways. Um, they have a lot going for them. Pre-divorce, and then going through the divorce itself. The experience of the process itself is can , can really beat you down in a lot of cases. Um, and I know that it doesn't have to be that way because I've had the opportunity to witness other other ways of doing it, right? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And so that's where, when I, when I thought about how I really wanna be able to help people, I want them to know that they have options. I want them to know that they can make choices today that are gonna set them up for a better next step instead of not even considering what this means for the future. And then setting themselves up for a lot of adversity going forward.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm , <affirmative> . Well, and I think that in looking at some of intentional ways of getting divorced or intentionally how you're going to go about the process, you know, we have to keep in mind that the divorce world was illegal . You know, like when you got married, you, you have a legal contract to get married, right? But nobody talked to you about the financial stuff, right ? And nobody really told you that at the end you're gonna have to get through all the financial stuff, even if this is a legal process. And I think really understanding that people in the legal process do not , um, always understand the financial ins and outs is a very big piece of the process. So you and I and other professionals are starting to take people out of that process and say, Hey, if you guys need to know more about the financials, then we really need to do this a different way. And it doesn't necessarily need to be in the court. Right? That's right. So that's part of kind of understanding that you don't have go play those games that everybody else has had to go, you know, jump through those hoops. But then what does that mean if, if, if I'm not going the traditional route, which is I'm just gonna file and you're gonna get that paperwork and we're just gonna start fighting and we're gonna move out and do all this stuff, you know, which there's a time and place and a and a and certain relationships that that is good for, right? But like, if that's not what it's good for, like, you don't have to love, like still get along, but you can, you can have some, Hey, maybe we wanna look at what's best for the whole family. So in that capacity, people are like, well, I , I don't even know how to get started with any of this. You know, so what steps should they take towards making some of these empowered decisions during their divorce? And like, how do they find the right people to help them do that?
Speaker 2:So first and foremost, I think it's really important that you get in touch with your state of mind. Um, you know, I've had folks over the years come and meet with me to talk about financials, and they're crying, and sometimes they're, you know, almost hyperventilating and like, they're so stressed and overwhelmed. We can't talk about financials. When you're in that state, there's nothing that you're gonna absorb that I'm gonna share with you. You're not gonna be able to answer my questions. It's not gonna be a productive conversation. So really getting in touch with that piece first and making sure that you're in the right head space to be able to deal with some of these things. And if you are not then taking the steps to get there, right? And that could mean potentially seeing a therapist. We offer virtual support groups for people. Uh, there's so many wonderful divorce coaches out there. There are a lot of resources out there. Um, and if you feel like you can't even get past the overwhelm of it, you're not gonna make intentional decisions. You're just not. Um, and so that's the first step is really getting in touch with where you are initially , um, in that mental state and, and finding the right support for you. Now, it is really, really important that you're working with people experienced in the divorce space specifically, and that is everybody from therapists to coaches, to, you know, everybody on your team, of course, attorneys and whatnot. Um, but the divorce space is a unique space. You know, people's entire lives are changing through this process. There are the legal aspects that we always have to keep in mind. There are the financial aspects that are huge transition. Of course, taxes have a big , um, you know, a consideration when we're looking at things. So there's, there are a lot of pieces that are very specific and unique to divorce. And so it's really important that you're engaging with professionals who are experienced in this process. And to some extent, kind of to speak to what you were talking about before, Melissa, to shut out some of the noise. So whether that is your friend who recently got divorced, or there are all these groups on social media, I'm sure there're very well-meaning. Um, but boy, I have seen some horrible responses to things where I'm just like, that's just not true <laugh> , you know? Um, but people are taking this as if it's a fact in a comment in a Facebook group or something, right? Um, and, and the other thing I've seen, which has been , uh, really frustrating as a professional is people putting themselves out there as an expert online. And then if you look up their credentials, they're not credentialed at all, right? Um , and so it's really important to surround yourself with a team of people who can help you in this way. But the first step, again, is getting that mental clarity. So then , like, if you're working with a financial professional, you can really look at the numbers and talk through your goals and that piece of it. Um, so that way you can make good financial decisions. It's the same thing with an attorney, though. An intentional divorce doesn't mean that you're not getting legal counsel. It's important to understand the laws in your area. That's important to know that, and to educate yourself on that. We operate in that context, right? Um, and so understanding that is really important. But not every attorney is focused on that intentionality, right? There are a lot of attorneys who wanna stir the pot. Um, there are a lot of attorneys who like to go to court. Um, you know, you want to find somebody who's willing to educate you, give you options, listen to you. Um, but then on the the flip side of that, the attorneys have to give their advice and their guidance based on the law, right? That's, that's what they're doing. Um, and sometimes that might not be in alignment with what you're feeling would be the right intention for you , being able to communicate that to them and let them know, I understand the law, I hear what you're saying, but we want to work through this piece of it outside of the court system. And I'm not necessarily gonna go along with your guidance in this case. Now, there are some attorneys that are receptive to that. They understand this is your life. There are some attorneys that are not so receptive to that Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And so finding those folks on your team who can really help you navigate this process, but with you as sort of like, you know, if you think of the hero's journey, right? Like it's your journey. This is gonna impact your life at the end of the day. And so you responding to, you know, my financial guidance or Melissa's financial guidance or, you know, the attorney's guidance, it's not impacting our lives forever, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, and so I think it's just so critical that you put yourself in that driver's seat.
Speaker 1:Now, I think it's interesting, the mindset. So you started with mindset, and it's interesting to me because it , like, I had an epiphany while you were talking, like in going through divorce, you become a different person, like the process of divorce, like you're not the same person that you started out with when you end. And, and sometimes you switch professionals during that process. And I never kind of connected that. But I think that the mindset is very important because if you don't start to focus on what is in your own best interest first, and then your family, children, or other things, I think we get into the space of like , um, I want that because I don't want you to have it. Right? Or I, I want that because they don't want, you know, like you're, you're sometimes in a relationship making decisions based on that other person still, you know, even if it's traumatically connected , um, you're still making those same decisions where you really have to center on like, what do I like a , a house, right? Well, I wanna stay in the house. Why? Well, because I don't want them to have somebody in my bedroom, you know, in the future. And I'm like, yeah, but do , do you wanna Maybe, is it too expensive for you? Is it too this? Like, we have to, I think in some ways to get to that intentional decision making , you have to almost start to become your own person . And like, what do I want? Which sometimes that conversation people have never had. Like I've thought in a couple, I've thought as a family, I've never put myself first, right? And now you're coming to this and people are saying, well, what do you want? You're like, I don't know. And I'm wanting things to maybe keep them from the other. Like, do you want that motorcycle? Well, I don't want them to have it. Well, can you ride a motorcycle? No. Do you just want it so that they don't have , you know? So I think that is part of it too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think one of the biggest pieces of that intentionality is to not necessarily rush through the process. And a lot of times once you make that decision that you're moving forward with the divorce, you want it to be over yesterday. Nobody likes to be in this sort of middle space of like not quite knowing what their life is going to look like. Um, and so a lot of times people are in a rush to get through the process. But I had a client who I've been working with , um, she's going through a very difficult divorce, unfortunately. Um, but she said to me, 'cause she a whole history through the marriage of issues. And I said , um, you know, why did you decide to divorce now? Um, you know, when you've been experiencing this for all these years. And she says to me, you know what? My kids are grown the business is doing okay. I know I'll be able to support myself financially. We're in a good place. This is the right time. And I thought, I love that because so many times they're reacting to like an affair or something that happened. And it's like, I'm not giving myself the time and space to create the environment that's going to allow me to transition easily, right? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . So especially happens with people who have a significant amount of debt. If you have a significant amount of debt between the two people when you get divorced and you're responsible for half of it on less income, it can be just an absolute nightmare for people, right? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And so getting to the point of, okay, we know maybe that we're moving forward with the termination of marriage, but how can we financially improve our situation so that we're both better off when we decide to split? Right? And so really thinking about things in all different ways in terms of being intentional and how those decisions are impacting you today and in the future .
Speaker 1:Future . Well, and I think that, you know, another thing that you said is at the beginning, people are asking their friends because they want to know what to expect, right? There is so much unknown in the divorce world because so many people can go into different ways of getting divorced and have totally different outcomes. I think that, you know, they're asking these questions, not realizing that that could have been a one-off situation. And I think that people need to realize that when you go to get divorced, there are financial issues and there are legal issues. And most of the time the lawyers want to cover all of that. And the reality is what we're seeing now, it's sort of like in the olden days, we let the lawyers do everything. And now we're really realizing, and even the attorneys are realizing like the financial pro professionals really know what to do. They can govern the process, they can work people through it. But then you get to the point of saying, well, but the court does it like this, right ? And we're not necessarily going into the court. So it creates like, creative ways that you might be able to problem solve when yeah, you have this debt, like you wanna talk about debt. What if you both signed on an SBA loan? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Neither one of you are coming off of that <laugh> , you know, like not anytime soon, right? So you might have to, and the court sits there and it's like, I don't, I don't know what to do with this guys. <laugh> . You know? So you are gonna have financial situations that the court or other professionals didn't know how to deal with, right? That's right. So I think that that's another one, but maybe we have some examples of how you can make these decision making , um, you know, this empowered decision making positive positively impacts your divorce process. Little tongue tied there, <laugh>, but because I, I think that we hear the stories about how things went wrong, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , we very ra very rarely is somebody coming in , listen, I had this great calm, peaceful communication with my spouse. Like, they're not singing that from the rafters, you know, so how, how are we actually seeing this take place?
Speaker 2:So in my own practice, I see it most commonly when I do work as a financial neutral. Um, and it's not as a financial neutral in the traditional sense of like a collaborative divorce, but where people, two people are working with me through the finances, typically those people don't necessarily either have children at home or they're not really conflicted around parenting issues. They're really trying to understand the financials. And what is fantastic about working with somebody specifically on the financial piece that has that knowledge and expertise is that you can really walk through and understand the pros and cons of each different scenario, what that's gonna mean for you today, but also in the future. Because so often, I don't know about you Melissa, but when I see attorneys passing back and forth spreadsheets with like one value on it, and there's no cost basis for anything. And sometimes I don't even know what kind of account it is or who actually is titled on the account , and I'm like, how does this get negotiated like this? Right? Like, you just, there's not enough information, but they're looking at one static moment in time, whereas a financial professional is looking at it more comprehensively. We're really looking at it, okay? Not just today at this moment, at this balance , um, but what does, you know, taking this asset on, I have a client who , um, she came to me at the very end of her divorce, so I wasn't involved with the negotiations or anything. Um, but she has a big payout on the house to her spouse. And , um, we're talking through kind of her goals and her future and she is wanting a new kitchen and she's wanting , um, I forget some, some big renovations to the house. And she's got this big payout to the spouse and we start talking about like, do you absolutely love this house? Like, is this just, I mean, if you absolutely love this house, sure, you know, invest all this money in this house, you know, pay him out. You get to stay where you're at, fantastic. But if you don't absolutely love this house, could you potentially sell it? Give him his money, go into something that's already done, and not make this huge investment in a neighborhood that might not really get you that return ever, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, but like, that wasn't even something that was on the table, wasn't even something that was considered when they were negotiating things . It was just either somebody was gonna keep the house or, you know, and somebody was gonna get paid out on the house or whatever. So , um, those are examples though where, you know, specifically as people are walking through this process, they can really start to understand that they have options and they're not always the most obvious options. Um, you know, I have a client who was really struggling with income , um, and did decide to keep the house, but then , uh, uh, built like a , a separation so they were able to rent out part of the house and stay there, right? So that way we could bump up the income high enough so that way she's able to stay where she wants to stay. Um, and in her particular case, it was, you know, for her child to get through high school. But these are the examples of, of really understanding that there is, there are so many ways, so many ways that you can solve these puzzles and there's just not a one size fits all solution. Um, and so that's what the empowered decision making is about. It's about really understanding what's important to you and looking at the whole situation and saying, well, how can we make this happen? But what I like about working with both parties is I get to have that conversation with both of them . What are you really worried about? What is next for you? How do we fit that into the plan and ask the other spouses the exact same thing. And then you're , it's so much easier to get to a resolution when everybody's goals and concerns are being take , uh, taken into consideration. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative> . Well, and I, I think that, you know, there's, I think, again, let's talk about the olden days. The olden days would be like, we're gonna get divorced and I'm gonna take you for everything I can, and you're gonna think the same thing . So that's why we get the best lawyer. That's why we get , uh, you know, valuation experts. That's why we get financial neutral, the all these experts, right? And then we fight them to, and , and one goes high and one goes low, and we fight, fight, fight , fight , fight. The reality is that there's gonna be a winner and a loser, right? Somebody hired the better attorney, they came up with a more creative way to screw over the other party and you're not gonna be any wiser about it. Right? So this is really, and and I like this because we do a lot of this work as well. If you work with one financial person, you can ask the questions. You guys could do it in together, you could do it in separate. Each professional has like a process, right? I encourage people to work with people who have a process because , um, then it might be they've actually done it for a while, but then you might be able to ask those questions in front of everybody. Because what I feel like is that we hold these big things like, I'm gonna get you with this. And they hold it for months , right? And then at the right time they're like, see, I got you. And then everybody's like, that's not a Got you . You don't have anything like you thought you did, you talked to your friend who used the same tactic in their divorce. But we don't have a gotcha moment right now. And I think that if you start to have more intentional divorcing, right? E even conceptually, if your spouse doesn't parlay into it, at least you are mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that that is going to then create that those things would be exposed, right? Right. And maybe they're , maybe it's not about getting over on the other party, but understanding what legitimately is a benefit to you and legitimately is not a benefit to you. Right. You know, 'cause some things, just like you said, you know, we have a current , um, situation where the properties are very , uh, there , there's gonna be a huge tax burden if we sell any of the properties, right? They've been over depreciated basically. Well, everybody's looking at them at fair market value, at the top value, and that's not the right way to maybe look at it, but that's how the court wants to look at it, right? And then the court will take the other things into consideration. So it's sort of like, instead of trying to figure out what the court allows us to do, try to figure out what you want to do, right? Yeah. Um, but what are some of the issues? Like what are some of the problems? Because this seems very kumbaya, this seems like, hey, you know, like we sit down and, and, and Leah fixes it, right? But what are some of the challenges that people face if they choose to divorce with intention, and how can they overcome some of these?
Speaker 2:So this is not an amicable divorce, and I'm not actually in love with the term amicable divorce because I think it sets us up for failure in a lot of cases. Because in a lot of cases people are not in a situation. They want to have a positive experience. They want to , um, feel good about how they interacted through the process. Um, but for a variety of reasons , um, amicable isn't a goal that's gonna work for them . Right. And that's specifically why we we choose to use the word intentional. I think that's really important. Um, it is amazing if both people can choose to be intentional Mm-Hmm . Best outcome. Absolutely. But even if your spouse is not willing to act with intentionality, you can still make that choice, but you have to make it over and over again. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And what I mean by that is there is a lot that can come up through the divorce process. And if I know that I am, you know, approaching my divorce with the intention that I'm gonna feel good about how I acted through the process, that's important to me. I wanna be able to look myself in the mirror in the morning, and I wanna feel good every time I get up knowing that I acted with integrity and that I feel good about how I acted. Right. Well then your, your spouse does something. Or goodness gracious, I get copied on so many emails between attorneys that are so nasty to each other. You get copied on one of these things and all of a sudden you spiral. Right? Yeah . Like it's a trigger and like , forget about it . Yeah . Intentionality goes out the window, right ? So it's about making that decision over and over and saying, okay, I'm reading this, it's upsetting me, but I'm gonna give my ti myself the time and space to process and not have that immediate reaction. Um, and I, I recognize that's difficult. Do not get me wrong. I see some of the nastiest stuff that I get copied on come through. Um, and so it really is a decision that you have to continue to make. Um, but the other thing about it is you have to have the right professionals in place. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , because not all professionals support the empowered decision making . And that's a critical component of being able to go through this process with intentionality.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, and I think that it's almost, you know, like everybody's gonna be like, well, of course you guys think that the professionals are important. Um, but, but really this is a different way of divorcing, you know, what, what I endeavor to do and what I believe you are endeavoring to do is not a peaceful way of divorce, not an amicable divorce. It is an informed divorce. That's right . Right . You, you, you understand what you are giving up, what you are asking for, what you are going to, what the obligation for that is. And in some capacity, I think that what we've experienced is that if you have that conversation where maybe both people can hear, you know, if you're asking me very specific things about a certain thing of divorce, you know, business valuations or something that I know , I want both people to hear it at the same time. Absolutely. 'cause sometimes it just is what it is. Like, I'm sorry you love blue and it is blue. I didn't make it blue for you. Right. Like, it just is. So I think that there's something to be said and for you guys to not play the telephone game. Right? Right . Because then you're like, well, I talked to somebody and they said this. No, I talked to somebody and they said this instead, you're like, you know, asking Leah questions and then Leah responds and then one person doesn't like it, they can ask additional questions, you know, and you, and you start to have a conversation about stuff instead of an argument maybe. Right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's so powerful to have people hearing the same message. Yeah. This game of telephone, in some cases, it's not even, it's literally that the message was miscommunicated. Like that is a hundred percent of the problem <laugh> . It doesn't have, it's not any deeper than that. Um, and so sometimes, you know, just literally hearing the same information, being able to answer the questions all at the same time , um, it's, it really is a very powerful experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because I don't know that last time that you've probably had a discussion about cost basis to a client and they understood it enough to be able to communicate the concept to anybody else. And so we're not saying it's, it's almost like some of the legal issues are easier to understand at this point than some of the financial, and if you continue in court, nobody's really going to , you know , like we're gonna continue to have to educate everybody in court as opposed to just educating the couple in some capacity. Don't you agree?
Speaker 2:A hundred percent
Speaker 1:And they're gonna pay for us to educate everybody else, including the couple <laugh> .
Speaker 2:That's right. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Well,
Speaker 2:And I'll say at least I think that's actually the best outcome. So many times nobody gets educated and then, you know, people will reach out to us. In some cases it's years after the fact, and I'm looking at their agreement trying to figure things out, and there are like gaping holes in their agreement where, and this comes up with pensions all the time, things just were never discussed. They were never agreed upon. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , they just weren't even addressed. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that, you know, if you have a , a memorable case or something that you can give us an example where intentional divorce made a significant difference. I think it's helpful because again, people don't know what divorce looks like. That's right . And so we're saying, oh, this is different, or, oh, you should, you know, have a more informed process , but like, what does that really look like if we put it into play?
Speaker 2:So I'll be honest, part of it is being vulnerable. And I think that's part of what makes it so difficult is getting past that vulnerability and acknowledging, you know, for the work that I do, you know, I'm, I'm knee deep in the finances all the time. For a lot of people, they have to acknowledge that they don't fully understand their financial situation. And for some people, that's somebody who's been taking care of the finances. This is not always the spouse who wasn't involved in the finances. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> sometimes this is the one who really took the leadership role in the finances in the couple. And they're, they're owning the fact that like, there's a lot that they don't know. Um, and that can feel really hard. Um, and, and, you know, bringing a person , uh, you know, outside of the family into the situation, opening up about these things, doing it in front of your spouse, like this can be, there's, there's a lot of different levels of complexity to this. Um, but I see it all the time where people are making these decisions. And I think that is what I want more people to know, is that there are people every day getting divorced in an informed and empowered way, and you don't hear about them because it's not these big dramatic experiences in their lives because of the way that they've handled it. You know? And not necessarily like sweeping it under the rug, but more so that they have taken the steps to really understand what are the options, how can we move through this as seamlessly as possible? And I see it a lot with the , you know, there's this huge wave of grade divorce, and I see a lot of these folks who, you know, especially because the grade divorce cases are really financial cases , um, and, you know, for the most part, they wanna make sure that they're able to retire or stay retired , um, and that they're able to leave the legacy that they wanna leave. That's really important to them . Um, and so I've had a few of these couples, and I'm thinking of one in particular where we really sat down and talked about what do you want for your adult children? What matters to you? What's, what do you value, what's most important to you through this process? And they wanted to make sure that they got to have all the experiences with the grandchildren. You know, some of the cases are dealing with younger kids and the parenting, but as people age, it's, it's a different , um, different issues that are coming up. These are not things that the court is involved with, right. But these are real family issues that need to be discussed if you wanna have the kind of relationship where you can both be present in your grandchildren's lives. Right. And so , um, this particular couple really spent time talking through what was most important to them as far as the kinds of relationships they had with their adult children and with their grandchildren, how they wanted to be able to experience holidays and special celebrations. Um, and then from a financial standpoint, both were able to walk away with a complete retirement plan. They were both already retired, but that complete retirement plan to know that they felt confident they weren't gonna run outta money and they could leave the kind of legacy that they felt proud of. But working through all of the details of that, a lot of that doesn't fall neatly within divorce laws. It just, that's, that's not space for it. Um, but it makes a huge difference in a family.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that again, in the past we've tried to retrofit, you know, how to do these financial things in court. And the reality is, when we made up marriage, we should have had some rubrics of, of how we were combining our finances. But that's not how marriage started, you know? And so when we're coming to unwind it, I think that your point about, you know, being even vulnerable, but even being honest, you know, like , um, like for example, like I received $20,000 in inheritance last year and we just put it into our joint account. Like, I think I should get credit for that. Now, the court might be like, good luck with that, but the other spouse might be like, well, I, I feel like I also received, you know, $10,000 from my grandma and , and we did something like that. Could I get credit for that? You know, I think that you get to a situation where you can look at both people and be like, does it make sense that we would give each of you credit for that? Because that, that seems reasonable. Now the court might totally throw some wrenches in that, but if it's good for your family, oops. If it's good for your, the couple, I think it's really about do you want this divorce to be your experience or do you wanna go put on somebody , somebody else's experience and just go through the motions? And I think that is kind of the distinguishing factor that you have to figure out. Like, and it's not, oh, I have some complications that are a heart. Everybody who even has a simple divorce has complications. And you need like a financial person to just ask a simple, like, sometimes it's just a simple question like, is this pre-tax or post-tax? Does it matter? And we could answer it easily, whereas you might Google and get five different answers and not know how to figure it out. Right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah. I had a woman here in Ohio who , uh, scheduled an appointment with me. It's coming up. And she copied all this information from stuff she had found online because she was so confused about the conflicting messages. Well, based on the language and what she copied, some of what she was reading was in community property states and some of what she was reading was Ohio based and like, yeah . So yeah , there are conflicting messages because the laws differ from state to state. And so it , it can be very confusing a lot of this stuff. And that's why it's really important to have somebody who's knowledgeable, who can just give you the confidence to know you're making the decisions and you're understanding them .
Speaker 1:Well, and I, and I think as we give some information about, you know, and you're gonna tell us a little bit more about how people can contact you and get in , uh, in , into this process. Right. I think that one additional thing, and I, I think I already forgot what the heck it was at this point, but, oh, I , I think that you have to remember that divorce in the court system was created so that attorneys could kind of be the gatekeepers of this process and that it was a legal kind of issue that you're unwinding the financial complications. I don't think anybody totally planned for Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And so I think when you're dealing with some of those financial complications, there could still be things that go into the court, but an attorney telling you financial information is probably not the best route. Um, but also that you can be advocating for yourself and get some of these resources even if your spouse is not willing to go forth. Right. So how , tell us more about, you know, this new website and what they can find or how they would get started. Or do they need to have buy-in from their spouse in order to get started?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. You don't need buy-in from your spouse. This really is a personal decision about how you want to approach the divorce process. Okay.
Speaker 1:Um, but
Speaker 2:As far as the website goes, we have an extensive, extensive blog educating people on their , um, choices that they could make through the process. And I'm very excited. We are launching a new podcast, intentional Divorce Insights. We have Melissa coming on as a guest to talk about intentional business valuation. Um, but it's really about looking at every aspect of the divorce process, every expert that you need to engage based on your unique situation and understanding how do I approach this with intentionality? Um, and so if, if both , uh, you and your spouse are willing to have a conversation , um, you know, it's always my preference to try to talk with both parties initially , um, to see if we can keep everybody on the same page. Um, but like I said, if, if you can't get your spouse on board or you don't know how to get your spouse on board , you know , always reach out to me and we can have an initial conversation.
Speaker 1:And I think that, you know, one of the other things is that if you're , if you think that your spouse is the more financially smart person, right? And that understands it more than you , um, usually neither one of you know as much about divorce as you should. But even if you think that that's the case when, when we've gotten involved in situations, you know, sort of at the beginning if there's really this discrepancy of understanding of financials, we'll have the conversation of like, Hey, I know we're doing a lot of these meetings together, but it would probably benefit one of you to have an like, after each meeting to have an additional hour conversation to make sure you understand. Do you both feel comfortable with that private conversation to really just, you know, maybe dial it down a little bit, not bore one , you know, because what we'll normally see is the more financially savvy person is like, I don't wanna sit here and talk about this. Right. In most cases, it's all relevant information for both. But there are times where we educate one party, and if you get that trust and you get that confidence that, you know, like they have to understand it's not our money, right ? It's not our circus, it's not our monkeys, it's not our problem. Like we're really just giving you like what we know is sound financial advice, regardless of where it falls on your pile or their pile, if , if it seems favorable. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And actually to speak to that, Melissa, I have noticed in my practice, and I was looking back over like who our clients have been and who has really chosen to approach the divorce with intentionality. And you'll find this interesting, the two most common professions that reach out and want to really focus with intentionality accountants, this is not their area of expertise and attorneys. Yeah . So those are the folks who, you know, see the other side of things and recognize that there are , there's another way to do it. And I think attorneys more than anybody know that they wanna keep the process out of the court.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And again, if it's phases and it's, and it's steps, you know, you might have different needs at the beginning then you do at the end, but getting some , a consistent financial person throughout that, that's checking things, that's saying, okay, well we talked about this, but I'm seeing it look different over here, you know, is always a good sanity check for the legal piece of it. You know, you still might need lawyers to file things and go through that process, but it's really the educational piece. Right. You know, and if people wanna push you through very quickly, that might be the time where you're not getting all of your questions answered and you're just like, well, they told me to pick something so I just picked it. Right. But it, it really is a little bit. Um, I mean, and if it can go quickly because you got your an , your questions answered, great, but for the most part it is a process. So , um, they can reach out to some of these ways and we will be talking about valuations on the podcast, but um, if people have more questions, they can reach out to you. Can they , um, usually sign up for like a consultation with your firm or with people, your staff? Yeah , we do a monthly information session where you can kind of learn about all of our services. That's a great way to just dip your toe in the water and kind of get to know us and see what's going on. Um, or if you're ready to really talk through the specifics of your situation , um, you can schedule a free consultation. Oh, I love it. Okay. That's awesome. So the monthly thing, that's a good idea. I might have to deal that one anyway . Go for it . Okay. Well this is an amazing , um, concept and I think that a lot of people are moving towards this, whether, whatever you wanna call it , um, you know, getting educated about your divorce is , is should be your priority. So , um, reach out to somebody, but we do think that we are doing things , uh, a little bit ahead of the game. So, you know , um, the other thing is that if, if something like this makes sense, usually I encourage people to reach out. Even if you're, you know, like I know that if I'm not the right person, I have no problem saying that and directing you to the right person. Um, and that is a way, you know, you can do a lot of Googling online, but if you find somebody reach out to them, maybe they're not the right person, or maybe you know that they're not the right person, but you , they could be heavily connected or give you some insight , um, to where to go. So Absolutely , uh, we appreciate Julia , and I'm sure you'll be on again, who knows what we'll talk about. But , um, we appreciate you today and hopefully people will reach out and go on a different path to divorce. That would be great. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you.