Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Coping with Narcissistic Behavior During the Divorce Mediation Process
Hi, welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a valuation expert and divorce financial mediator in St. Louis, Missouri – specializing in divorce and partner disputes.
Today we are speaking with Victoria McCooey about Coping with Narcissistic Behavior During the Divorce Mediation Process. She is a Narcissist Divorce Coach, a Motivational Speaker and the creator of the Reclaim Your Power System™ based in New York. She helps her clients reclaim their power in order to make life-altering decisions from a place of strength instead of fear.
Melissa Gragg
CVA, MAFF
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC
melissa@bridgevaluation.com
http://www.BridgeValuation.com
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com
https://www.valuationmediation.com
Cell: (314) 541-8163
Victoria McCooey
Victoria@VictoriaMcCooey.com
TikTok: @VictoriaMcCooey
https://www.victoriamccooey.com/
Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation, and collaboration. My name is Melissa Greg , and I'm evaluation expert and divorce financial mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. Today we're speaking with Victoria McCoy about coping with narcissistic behavior during the divorce mediation process. She's a narcissist divorce coach, a motivational speaker, and the creator of Reclaim Your Power System based out of New York. She helps her clients reclaim their power in order to make life altering decisions from a place of strength instead of fear. Welcome, Victoria. How are you?
Speaker 2:Hi , Melissa. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:So, you are our favorite narcissist coach and expert. So , um, we obviously are not going to just talk about, you know, what is narcissism. And I wanted to kind of blanketly say at the beginning that if you've seen any of the videos that we've done before , um, that when we're talking about narcissism, we're talking about personality traits. We're talking about behaviors that we see evident and people that , um, act a certain way and divorce. We're not necessarily saying that they have been officially diagnosed this or that we could adequately diagnose them. We're not in the business for doing that, but we're in the business of working with narcissists in a capacity of divorce. And even one of us has experienced divorcing a narcissist, <laugh> <laugh> . So, so maybe we could just start off, before we kind of talk about going straight into divorce mediation, maybe we could just talk about what does it mean as a narcissist divorce coach? Like what, what does that really, what does
Speaker 2:It really mean? All right . Well, there, there are coaches for healing from narcissistic abuse, and there are a multitude of divorce coaches. I have tried to dovetail these two different areas together because so many people who are divorcing are divorcing someone because of their narcissistic traits. Uh, so this is something that instead of trying to heal and then trying to divorce or vice versa, we're trying to do it all together, right? We're trying to save time and energy. But the reality is it's very unlikely that you're going to be able to get through a divorce with a narcissistic person, a highly narcissistic person, successfully. If you don't do some of that work in conjunction with the divorce, you , you're compromised and there's a lot of healing that needs to be done in order for you to go the distance because they will try to sabotage it, just like they've done every , uh, uh, overpowered a lot of the other things in your life. It's probably one of the reasons you're trying to leave. Um, and they're overbearing. And there's the statistic out there. I mean, there are male narcissists and female narcissists, but , um, most of people hate it when I say this, but this is just data. Most narcissists are men, and so most victims of narcissistic abuse in marriage are women. Um, but there's a statistic out there that says women try to leave a toxic relationship such as one with a narcissist try to leave on average seven times before they finally leave for good, which means they're sucked back in to the cycle seven on average, seven times before they can actually go the distance. It's either because they're , they're love bombed back in, right? They're convinced that I've ch I'm gonna change. Everything's gonna be just the way you want it. I'm going to be a , I'm gonna do everything that you want. And of course, that doesn't happen. Or they're bullied and , uh, abused back into the relationship. That was a long answer . Well ,
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:<laugh>
Speaker 1:No, I think that that's great because I think that it is hard to understand why we talk about narcissism, and this is a mediation podcast. And the only way that I can really sort of help our viewers understand this is that what we have experienced in mediation and with dealing with high dollar divorces is that typically if there's a narcissist involved on either side in either capacity, right, male or female, you are going to have a longer process. You're going to need to be more prepared. Um, you are fighting somebody who is probably not gonna give up and , um, you know, you, you need to not assume that this is going to be an easy fight. So, and normally we see, like if I really die just or kind of figure out what we see when you're involved with a business or high net worth divorce and a narcissist is we typically see those cases go to trial and they will fight until that day. So even getting them into mediation is a process. And so then when they're there, it, it really doesn't, it's not your be even as a professional, even as anybody involved in this process, the narcissist is going to create a different process. And so that's why we talk about it because we see it prevalent in business. We see it prevalent in , uh, divorces , um, in relationships. And it becomes something that if you just wanna deal with the finances and the emotion and the strategy of divorce, and you're not prepared for the narcissist to be in there , um, you're gonna fail. So , um, or you're gonna lose, and they're gonna make it be painful in that process. So
Speaker 2:We , we , we tend to think that the justice system is fair and is going to work at its magic and make everything come out the way it is legally supposed to. And that doesn't always happen. A narcissist can , um, derail the whole thing. They're so controlling, they're so , um, difficult. They're so exhausting that a lot of times that's how they get their way by just being so frustrating that nobody can deal with them .
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. And I've been talking about , um, this lately, just because we've seen so much of it lately of keeping , uh, cases, divorce cases in court, right? Um, because you just can't get them to move very much. But in, in looking at some of the narcissism or what's happening around, there are some things that we're seeing kind of repeated and the behavior that we would typically see narcissists do in divorce, mediation or some of the patterns that you might see where it , they're not just, and mediation, right? These are gonna be, we're gonna probably talk about patterns just in general that you're going to be seeing when you're dealing with these people. And because divorce is kind of communication and negotiation, you're going to have to deal with how to see this, recognize it, and handle it in the process. So even if we could just start with like, some of the kind of typical patterns that you see, I think that will at least get us started in recognizing like, how is this really manifesting? Right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:The first thing that comes to my mind is because narcissists don't think the rules apply to them , <laugh>, it's, it's mind boggling how they just refuse to participate, right? Um, they, they, you better follow the rules. They're sticklers for making sure you follow every rule, every court order, every direction from a judge, you know, they'll call you out if you're even a little off the mark, but they don't, the rules don't apply to them , right? <laugh> , how ridiculous they're above the law. Like , uh, they're , they should have special treatment. They don't have to listen to a judge or anyone else, right? So when, just from the very beginning, discovery, when there's a , a call for discovery or interrogatories, they just don't participate. They, there's a date that doesn't mean anything to them . And then their lawyer is like, you know, extensions and delays and trying to come up with excuses. And, you know, that's when the lawyer starts getting frustrated. But, you know, until they get dragged into a court, and this could be a year before this happens, before they get dragged in front of a judge who then they go, what's the deal? And then of course, the judge now has to give them time to perform. So even then they don't get thrown in jail.
Speaker 1:Well, and we should, we should probably take each pattern one by one, because you're gonna come up with so many, it's gonna be crazy. But that one is such a good one and all I would add, like I have so much to add, but I'll add one thing, is that they're bigger. They think that they're bigger than the law, which makes you just think the court system. No, no, no. They're bigger than the IRS, which means that they will change their tax return. They don't care how they've, what they put on there, they'll make it up. They don't care. They don't care about the police. They will come in and enter your residence and take stuff from you and be like, well, it used to be my house. It used to be my stuff. I bought that for you. You know? So they're above the law in all, they're above probably God in the church, right? And, and so that's, that's a pattern that goes wide and deep. Yes. Right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. No one's gonna tell them what to do. They'll show you, they'll just do it. And the, the frustrating part is they usually get away with it. They usually get like a reprimand or a slap on the wrist. Nobody throws them in jail. You know, it's just, and they don't care. They know they're going to get away with it .
Speaker 1:And you talked about, and this was probably in our prior , um, video, but you talked about how the narcissist kind of chooses the person, you know, like they have a pattern of people that they kind of will be attracted to. And that's part of the pattern is, and I've noticed it after you told me that, is that the pattern of the spouse, that's not the narcissist necessarily, is, is that they will kind of placate or , um, you know, look at why is my spouse not following all the rules, like the , the , how could you file it , who would file a tax return? And, and with incorrect information, and I was like a narcissist every day of the week, right? Yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah. Every day . Um, yeah. So they're attracted, I've heard so many versions of this since I, since I've talked about it, I always talk about the victim, the person that they're with as the good girl, right? Because if the narcissist is a man and they're married to a woman, she's typically the good girl. She's ambitious, and , uh, overachiever, conscientious, rule follower, law abide or box checker list maker, right? We're efficient. We're, we're, we get things done and we rise to a challenge. So when there's fallout, we're like, we can fix that. We'll , I can do that. I can, I can fix that, right? We're, we're trying to fix everything. Then I heard someone say something really interesting. It's like, yes, we're high achievers and, and, and intelligent, all these things. And that is the challenge for them. How much fun would it be for them to overpower and victimize and be abusive to somebody who was already weak? That's like, anybody could do that. That's no challenge for them. We are the challenge, right ? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , I'm gonna take this strong, intelligent, high achieving person. I'm gonna wear them down, I'm gonna destroy them. And they do.
Speaker 1:That's also when they talk about like a yin and a yang, right? They'll be like, oh, well my, you know, like I'm the risk taker. The narcissist is sometimes the risk taker, and then the other spouse is not right? And they're like the rule follower. Well, you know, they keep me, and , and, and in some capacity, it then will come to the mediation. And then the mediation, I think you've talked about it, is the narcissist will kind of distract you with things that you have to do, right? And meanwhile, you're chasing those things around, and really we're ignoring all of the big issues,
Speaker 2:Right? So
Speaker 1:Distraction is a big thing, right?
Speaker 2:Very big thing. And when you start addressing their big issues that they're doing, they will immediately get you off of that. Or get a mediator, or a judge or a lawyer, anyone, they're so gifted at this back onto the small thing you did wrong. Like, you drop the kids off at half an hour late, and that's what the focus is on. But no, but my children mean more to me than that. And that's, she's keeping the children, and they'll just repeat and repeat and repeat until even a court has no choice but to address the thing. Because they're , they get stuck on it. <laugh> . I mean, I know everybody out there who's listening, who's married to a narcissist, is shaking their head yes. They just repeat and repeat and repeat. Like, there's something wrong with them. Like, why do you keep saying this over and over? It's such a tactic they use, because it becomes true. If they, if they say something enough times, people start perceiving it as the truth. Judges, lawyers, juries, whatever.
Speaker 1:Another thing that I think that we'll see often is that they will, you know, and we're, we're around the holidays and stuff. You, you will see how they behave around the holidays, will sometimes mimic the mediation or the court dates because they're kind of stressful times or whatever. And I'll see , um, narcissists will kind of below it, like, it'll be dramatic. It will be like, oh my gosh, my car died on the way here and I lost eight tires and I replace , I lost them again. You know, like, it becomes this like kind of drama. Um, that's also a distractor in the mediation. You know, if everybody's talking about your car for 30 minutes, we've wasted thousands of dollars. Um, literally not talking about anything. Right? Right , right, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, the delay tactics. I just remember in my own <laugh> , my divorce, by the way, took six years <laugh> , and then there were , uh, because of the delay tactics. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And then there were more, there was post-divorce motion practice for another seven years after they said we were just for the entire , uh, childhood of my children, <laugh> , until they were emancipated. I was in court. So I can't tell you how many people died during that time. <laugh> , it was like my mother died, my father died, my grandmother, my, my girlfriend's father died. Like all these deaths that weren't real, you know, about, I couldn't, I didn't show up for court and I didn't give any notice because my mother died <laugh> . It's like , right . How many times is she gonna die? It's amazing.
Speaker 1:Well, and that does kind of, that is one of the ways that we see a narcissist behavior affect the process of mediation and, and people involved. One is prolonging it, right? But what are some of the other patterns that kind of manifest in, in messing up things, if you will?
Speaker 2:Well, the , the outright, well , the first thing we talked about was not participating, just not adhering to any, any direction of turning things over. Having it get all the way to a judge, which takes forever, as you know. And then delaying those dates that they can, a simple thing, a first step, like discovery, easily. They can push it off a year easily. Right? It's, it's so easy. Um , so even showing up for a deposition, if that's next right? They'll delay it a hundred times. People will die, cars will break down. It will be unbelievable. The struggles to get to a deposition, then they get to the deposition. We were talking about this before too. The , the nonsensical answers, the circular, when I read some of these things, you just wanna pull your hair out. It's so frustrating. They can take an eight hour day and not answer one question. True.
Speaker 1:Uh , I mean, it's almost uncanny. And I think that, you know, if there's one thing that you should do, if you're getting divorced to somebody who you even remotely think is a narcissist, because they're gonna think you're one too, right? They're gonna say that you're one too. So if they're saying that you're one
Speaker 2:Projection <laugh> ,
Speaker 1:It might be true that they're one, right ? Even in, in , even in understanding that they will not wanna be clear with any of the information. So not the physical information, right . In giving it to you be like, oh, I thought you wanted this red piece of paper and I gave you it. No, no. I wanted what would all would be on the piece of paper? Oh, you know, like, okay, well, let me try again. You know ? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , and it's, it's this go back and forth, but it's trying to understand the questioning and trying to understand how you maintain your, the consu direction, right? Well ,
Speaker 2:Yeah. Which is what I was talking about in the beginning about how you have to work on your own emotional healing in order to get through this. It's so frustrating, right? And no more normal people don't typically have to deal with someone like this for very long anyway. Right? So you are in this divorce from one , um, and you're already triggered. You're leaving because of this, you were married to this person, <laugh> . So yeah, I mean, we're always triggered by our spouse, but this is like compounded so, so many times. So we have to come up with tricks and, and there are ways that I can help clients figure out what their specific trick needs to be. It's a very personal thing. Like we, we visualize , uh, bulletproof shields when they're throwing looks at us that can't penetrate, or their words that can't penetrate, or , um, my , for myself, I remember without realizing it was a , a trick or a tactic, I had this one junior lawyer who would always go to depositions with me, and she and I would pass notes. And that helped a lot, like laughing about his behaviors. So, you know, you're not crazy <laugh>. And , um, so you have some camaraderie over it. Like, I'm not crazy. The hardest pill to swallow, I think is that, you know, how much this costs to sit in a conference room with a court reporter, right? Somebody typing all this , uh, your lawyer, his lawyer, maybe a second set of lawyers, maybe a log guardian for eight hours or whatever. This is like thousands and thousands of dollars a day that are futile, that produce nothing except hopefully showing his abstinence, you know, that he won't comply.
Speaker 1:Well, and a a narcissist is always like everybody, I I think everybody perceives that narcissists are lying. Narcissists have told themselves the truth, that they also believe right now that could have been a lie, was whatever they told themselves, right? So it appears that it's a lie, but when you're talking to a narcissist, they're gonna go between this, like, I know exactly what it is. And then you say, okay, well, you know exactly what it is, and then the next question's gonna be like, so tell me more about exactly what it is. And they'll be like, I, I don't know anything about that. You know, like the , the , the , they flip flop a lot, like talk a lot , a little bit about that. Like, they'll be the smartest person in the world, and then they'll be de lately they'd be self-deprecating. Like, I don't know anything about this. Okay . In the same thing. Yeah. I
Speaker 2:Got you . So this is, this is what we talk about a lot in my coaching program, is seeing them for their emotional level instead of they've presented to you and you're, you're triggered to see them as this big scary monster that you're afraid of. So we try to flip that and see them as this very disordered and compromised person who emotionally is a toddler, right? And they really can't do any better. Um, I don't want you to feel sorry for them , but I want you not to expect much more from them. So when they behave this way, it shouldn't be any big surprise. Right? And when we, we talk about how it's like, if your toddler had a meltdown in the grocery store, that's inconvenient. It's annoying, but, you know, you don't get too upset about it. 'cause they can't do any better. They're tired. They need a nap, they need a cookie. I don't know. Like, it's not really their fault because they can't do any better with their emotional maturity level. So same <laugh>, they can't do this any differently. So I, instead of feeling frustrated by their behavior, I would hope that you could turn it around and feel empowered by it. Like, oh, this person is really damaged. Like, wow, that's really embarrassing and bad. That's Oh , poor thing. Poor thing. He really is showing how , uh, compromised he's,
Speaker 1:Well, and it's interesting because it is a shift, like as you're talking about that. 'cause when the spouses come in at the beginning, you know, and even in the mediation you'll see that the one spouse will , um, basically build up the narcissist and say like, they're so smart, and they're, they're so conniving and they're gonna trick you and they're gonna get away with it. And, you know, all of these things, unfortunately, is also very true. Um, but you know, it, you, you have to prepare yourself for having that be a different view as you go through this process. And how you communicate to them is going to be changing that viewpoint, which is very difficult for people.
Speaker 2:Well , so can you hear what we're saying? This is so important because we're saying that instead of you're a flying monkey, basically when you're doing that, you're doing the narcissist work for them. You're saying, oh, lawyer mediator, you better be prepared. This guy is really good. He's really smart. He's gonna get you, he is gonna trick you. He's gonna , he's so good at this. Like, wow. So now we're all seeing , we're all scared of this guy. Whereas if it was like, oh, mediator, he's really got some emotional issues, you know, so we can't expect normal behavior, right? It's like he's not gonna be able to tell the truth. He's not gonna be able to , uh, answer a question. He's, you know, he can't, his default is to lie. So it's, it's part of his disorder. And now you're aligned in being the mature people in the room.
Speaker 1:Well, and in some capacities, if you're, if you're looking at, you know, how they show up in a room, how everybody's dealing with them, how their kind of , um, children, you know, they're like disruptive children basically in this process. Um, some of the other things that they will do is deflect some of the responsibility. And, but in order for you to really pin down a narcissist, you have to do it in public, and you have to do it with other people around. So like, the mediation really is a good place to have those communications because you're getting them to commit, you know, like a deposition. It's on the record too. So that's a good suggestion. But we're typically not doing depositions in a mediation, right? Right. You can have hybrid, like a lot of people are doing mediation, you know, so even if you're like, looking at trying to get your spouse to do mediation, like are there any considerations legally or protective measures that we can even do to get them,
Speaker 2:Here's what , here's what I see a lot of the narcissist pushing for mediation, because they feel confident that they can persuade charm win over a , a mediator.
Speaker 1:Yep . Yep .
Speaker 2:And so it really, you need the right mediator. I've seen it go both ways. I've seen mediators fall for it, And I've also seen mediators totally get their number. And I had one client, oh my gosh, it was a long time ago. It was back when I, I hadn't seen mediation work with people like this. And this worked brilliantly because he was a doctor and he had like serious emotional issues that he didn't want anyone to know about. He had , um, anger management issues, he had control issues. He had, you know , all these narcissistic traits. He did not wanna psych eval. That was his big fear of being called out. So the narcissist , uh, the mediator saw him right away for what he was. And every time he wouldn't agree to anything that that was fair, you know, that he was just, you know, being dismissive or, or not participating, she'd go, okay, well, it's just gonna go to trial and I'm, I'm gonna suggest a , a psych eval and that would just do it. So they ended up doing a quick and fair settlement.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, and the only thing that I can liken it to is that in all questioning or , or discussions with a narcissist or somebody with that traits, they're going to either be trying to get more narrow in the que , you know, like, okay. You know, like, did, did you have a blue piece of paper for breakfast? And it was like, well , well , what do you mean? Did , did you mean, did , did I put my breakfast on top of a blue piece of paper? <laugh> ? It's like, no, I'm, I'm asking you, did you eat a blue piece of paper for breakfast? Well, well, no, but I , but I had a blue piece of paper there. Are you asking if the blue people , you know, like it's gonna be a constant trying to narrow to force you to narrow them down to the specific thing that they could say yes or no to.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna be devil's advocate here for a sec . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . I don't think that, that might not be their motivation for that. Okay. Yeah . I really , I've seen that a million times and I think it's all a delay tactic and Oh , a trying to wear you down tactic. I don't think they, they're just looking for ways to keep it going to frustrate you to never answer it . It , it's just a game.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> , it's a game. I think, I think that that is the biggest thing that you have to take away from this conversation is that at the game, which is exactly why it is so important to understand it if you are playing the game of mediation or negotiation, because if you misinterpret that player in the game, you'll lose. And you might not even know you lost until it's over. Right. So understanding, so
Speaker 2:Wait, tell me more about that.
Speaker 1:Well, so if you just think, if you take a, a narcissist at face value, right? Whatever they say, like, we normally think, okay, people are telling us the truth, like, you are gonna be led .
Speaker 2:'cause we do . That's, that's our reality. So we expect that other people are doing that too,
Speaker 1:Right? And we al you know, like we're professionals in divorce, so we're, we're, you know, like there's three sides to every story. So maybe they're not as bad as they, you know, like, so we go into it with this, right ? If you don't understand how they're going to manipulate the system, you will literally be like, and I, I , I feel like you gave me this analogy, but maybe like literally like they , that you're like, you're the dog and they're playing fetch with you, and they toss a ball into the corner and they're like, go get it. They're like, oh, you want discovery? Well, we'll let you beg for it and we'll throw that ball in the corner a hundred different times. As opposed to if you know that it's happening, you can be like, oh, okay, I saw the ball. I'm not gonna go for it. I'm gonna stay on what I'm here to do. You know, like, and understand that there is a, a strategy with a narcissist and without a narcissist. So I , I think that they can trick you and if you just think it's, oh, you know, they're just
Speaker 2:Right. Okay. So yeah , you have to realize that every delay is false. Every delay is a tactic to delay things. Um, look, it's hard. It's really hard to get ahead of it because you're dealing with a court system, right? So, well in mediation, you , it's not open-ended, right? You have a finite amount of time, right? That you have Mm-Hmm , <affirmative> . And then it's like, when these are exhausted, then it's gonna go to trial. So you, you can't, you can't wait forever, right? You have to, if they're not gonna produce discovery, then I guess the thing is, okay, so how do we, how do we make a case for the fact that they won't produce discovery, right? How do we use that instead of getting frustrated that they're not producing anything, say, Hey, your Honor, obviously they're withholding information, or try to expedite it that way. Am I making sense? It's like, use what you thought instead of what they won't give you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I don't , I don't think it's like, it's, I don't think it's working. I think this is a bigger conundrum that a narcissist is gonna fight until they die, right? Like, so if you think you're gonna like out weight them , you are wrong . So if you can't use time as a lever in a negotiation, then you have to see what else are you in control of? The, the , the whole thing about a narcissist is you're not in control of them at all. <laugh> . I know.
Speaker 2:You know , and you know, so nobody believes that you think that you're gonna go in and, oh, the judge is gonna be the person to make everything fair. A lot of times, and I would say most times, whatever you can get them to agree to, and you know, they'll move the goalpost, even if they say they'll agree to something, then when you agree to that, they'll say, well, that's not valid. And no, I didn't say that I said this, or like , whatever. But if you can get them to agree to anything, it's probably better to cut your losses than to try it is , I hate to say that it's so discouraging, but if you're not talking about huge sums of money, the, the length of time, the frustration and the cost of going through this years long process with them, it's hard to believe that you're not going to get vindication at the end of it. You're not gonna have somebody swoop in and save you and say, oh, he was wrong. He's bad. You're good. Here's everything for you. It's never gonna happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that that's the difficult part is that I am seeing that in negotiation. It they are, they are the most difficult piece to work around because they don't allow you to work around them, but also that they won't quit. And so in some capacity, normal negotiations, you can use time in your favor. You can manipulate time. Like I can withhold things and I can give things. When you have one person that is just gonna withhold until you break, then you have to start to say, okay, what am I okay with? Is it enough and could I exit right now? The problem is the person that's getting divorced is a rule follower. So they're like, yeah, but, but, but, but we didn't talk about all these things and it's not fair and we didn't do everything right .
Speaker 2:It's a crazy dynamic . It's, that's why this is such a frustrating and horrifying process. Uh, it's when somebody is in a narcissistic relationship and they're trying to break free from it, what do we tell them? No contact. Get away from this person. Don't have any con Well, here you are divorcing one, you have to have contact. It , it's, it's counterproductive, right? You're having to engage heavily with the one person you need to not even see or speak to.
Speaker 1:And that , and that spouse, if they really did it well right? Could actually negotiate against this , the narcissist very well, but they would have to become strong and not believe that. And that is the other harder part in the mayor , in , in the divorce. Right. You're probably gonna get there after. Yeah. But in the divorce, to be able to take that position, you know, is very difficult because in some capacity in mediation, in litigation, in anything, the person that needs to take the stand up against the narcissist is the spouse. Right?
Speaker 2:So many times, yeah. So many times, just like you said , um, we wanna believe that people are telling us the truth because that's what we would do On top of that, I hear people say, but he would never do that to me. He would ne no, he would never do that to the kids. He would never Yes , he would. And nobody can believe it until you see it. Oh, I know, I know he lied. I know he's bad . I know that was a bad, I know he is really bad and yeah, I have to leave the marriage. But he would never hurt the kids that way.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 2:He would
Speaker 1:Well, 'cause they have no
Speaker 2:Empathy , right? Yeah. It's part of their disorder.
Speaker 1:Well, and that kind of leads me to something like in here, you know, in some capacity in talking about what the role the mediator plays, like, it's like you can't just sit back . Okay, but what , what does the role of the mediator, you know, like how do you deal with the narcissistic behavior during this process? Because I will tell you, I think more often people ignore it. And so maybe we need to know how would you actually deal with it if you're the mediator and you see somebody coming in that's a narcissist, basically.
Speaker 2:So I always fantasize about being a mediator and mediating one of these things. <laugh>, maybe my next career I'll be a mediator. But knowing them so well, having studied this behavior, this personality disorder for so long, and knowing so much about it , I would get so much , um, satisfaction out of challenging and saying, oh, that is , is that your statement? That's what's true. What do you have to document that? And I would ask the other person, what do you have to refute that? Right? Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> , I would, I would call 'em out. I would say, well, I'm supposed to just believe that what you say is true. Well, why wouldn't I just believe what she says is true? You're saying what she says is not true. So why should I, you have to show me not take anything they say at face value. I would say, show me something. Show me anything. What? Constant , what? Well, this is an example we use all the time how they tell you things , um, and you're supposed to believe them, but there's nothing to support it. Like, you're a terrible driver. That's one of their favorites. I don't know why you're a terrible. And people will go, oh, well, I'm a terrible driver. Well , why do you think you're a terrible? Well , he tells me all the time, I'm a terrible driver. What supporting documents are there? Do you have tickets? Do you have accidents? Do you have DUIs? Do you have, what? What makes, has anyone else ever told you you were a terrible Well, no, but like, okay , well there's no supporting evidence then. So even something like that. Well, she always yells at the kids. Do you have anything to support that? Do you have documentation? Do you have a recording? Do you have any other witnesses who, who can testify to that? Where is that coming from? Right? I don't believe anything you say unless you can verify it somehow.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that from a financial aspect in mediation in general, we are accepting what people say more often and not getting the financial documentation or any documentation. But I think what you're mentioning is even deeper than that. It's that if you are gonna say that, you know, this is blue, then I'm gonna come back to you and say, okay, instead of going to the other person and saying, Hey, why is this not blue? And we all look and we're like, okay, but can you see it's not blue? Like what , what? You know, like instead, that's pretty good though. If you go back to the person that said it was blue and say, okay. Um, and you, you're not even saying, because as a mediator, you have to kind of be unbiased, right? Right, right. And so you're not saying , um, Hey, it's not blue. Right? You're really going back and saying, okay, so could you provide me with more information on why this is blue and get them to, because you'll uncover the straw man behind everything that they say is bss. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Like, they're literally making up the narrative,
Speaker 2:Right? And oh my God, will there be held to pay? They will despise you for questioning them. How dare you? How dare you not subscribe to whatever craziness I present here? How dare you? Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> . And you'll, you as a mediator must prepare to be hated <laugh> by this person. And that undoes a lot of people, right? They're, oh, oh, this person doesn't like me. Well, you know, I'm supposed to be unbiased. I'm supposed to be fair. Well, no, they're gonna hate you if you say anything that contradicts or doesn't, just allow them to say whatever they wanna say.
Speaker 1:But, but as a mediator, you should know that the narcissist is gonna smile while they do it . So you'll think that they like you. So it should be okay. But I think it's, it's interesting
Speaker 2:Now when , now when they push, you push them to another level,
Speaker 1:Well
Speaker 2:Then they can't control, then the mask falls off.
Speaker 1:And another layer to this is that the more you make the narcissist work to get documents, to pull together things to prove their position, they will typically not do those things and not prove out their position. So as a mediator, you then have to like, follow it back up at the next meeting and be like, okay, you , you did not provide me with any support, so I'm going to have to assume that that is not correct. And then pressure test them again to prove at Ansel. I think that's a really, really good strategy, actually. Um, now some of the strategies that I think that we're gonna talk about next are hard, because when you're in a divorce with a narcissist, they typically have gone so far, it's been, it's too far, and it's just egregious. And you feel so violated by how far they've pushed this, that some of the strategies that you really need to do is how you can maintain your sense of composure and clarity when this is happening in real time. Which is because a narcissist is going to push you, not because they're trying to, well, they're trying to, but they're gonna push you to the brink of pushing you off the edge every time they can. And, and you are going to have to figure out how to not walk off that plank. But it's very hard for people to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'm , is this, are these strategies for you as a mediator or? For
Speaker 1:Me, I feel like, I feel like this is my counseling session. <laugh> , yes . I feel like this is helping me as a mediator, but I , but I think in general, okay , it is it when, because you told me that a lot of times the mediators will also hire attorneys or I mean, sorry, the narcissist will hire attorneys that are also have some narcissistic tendencies. So I feel like as a practitioner, if you are gonna really negotiate, you need to be able to like, keep it together, or the person, the spouse, the the person has to keep it together during the mediation. So I feel like it's all of us need to figure out how to deal with that when they're in play.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there , this is not rocket science. This is just coping techniques that are across the board. There's nothing new here. It's about breathing exercises, but all these things or, or visualizations or whatever technique, I mean, I can walk through them, but the real strategy is to have them at the ready. Because when you're triggered, you don't think of that you're, you're in the moment, right? And you're reactive. So it's about practicing role playing and going, okay, say, and this is what we do and my program's, like I am the narcissist, and I say this and it triggers you, and the mediator seems to believe it. And you're like, I'm undone by this. So what are you gonna do? You, they get a , I'm always telling people, they get a snapshot, like you as a mediator, you get a snapshot of these two people. You don't know them long term . You're, you're taking them at face value, right? You at first don't know who the good guy is, who the bad guy is. And you don't know who to believe, who not to believe. So when somebody reacts to something that doesn't seem to you as being a big deal, but they're triggered by it, who looks like the unhinged party, the one who's reacting, like maybe they fly off the handle, maybe they're dramatic or like overreact or whatever. It's because they are triggered by the thing that just happened. So it's so important to practice that. And when that happens to, you know, what you're going to do, you don't have to think, what should I do? You know, already when this happens, I do this. When this happens, I write whatever it is on my paper , uh, you know, I will not ev I will not react. I will not react. I will not, well , whatever it is with your tool that you're going to use, know what it is and be ready to start it. Maybe it's, I'm breathing in for four counts. I'm holding my breath for four counts and I'm breathing out for four counts. You know , I'm gonna stare at my hand. I'm go , whatever is gonna take you out of that and into a different mindset.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that even the practitioners sometimes get, you know, like, because you could have a mediation that also has attorneys and sometimes everybody gets wrapped up with what the, how the narcissist is dictating the meeting. And I think that one of the reasons why I think that you talking about like your own mental readiness is important and people would think, oh, that's not a big deal. But it is so much of a big deal because if you have a plan of what you wanna talk about, like your important priorities for the mediation or for the divorce, if you continue to allow the narcissist to distract you, you will only talk about the things on their list. And you will never get to the things on your list. 'cause you'll run out of time. That
Speaker 2:Is such a good point. So always, always err on the side of saying less, right? Don't be the person who talks all the time, let them hang themselves. But you go in with your list, your top three priorities that have to be addressed. And when something's been going on with the narcissist for too long and you see that it's not getting anywhere you, and you haven't said a word in all this time that they've been rambling, you say, excuse me, Ms . Mediator, this doesn't seem to be a productive use of this time right now. Um, could we please move on? I'd like to address this next topic. What are you as mediator going to say?
Speaker 1:Well, I , I think that that is very, I mean, that's a very good way of communicating your frustration at paying for this process. And I think the mediators are always cognizant of not wasting time on topics that are not important , um, or moving the needle. But it's also, you know, I like to tell people to come up with some mantras because what you'll hear from the narcissist is mantras of like, I don't know . I don't know . And you come up with those same mantras of like, I don't feel like this is a topic to be handled in the mediation, can we move on? But it has, when you have a mantra and you say it the same way, what it triggers is that all the professionals will start to hear it being said over and over and they'll start to see, oh, this has happened. Three, it will create the pattern recognition in all of them. I love that . That they see what the narcissist is doing now. Right. Whereas it might not have triggered, they're just listening to stories, back and forth stories, but they're not hearing the pattern of the narcissist. So you create your own pattern of like, thank you. Um, but I came with three topics and I wanted to talk about the kids, the house and the car. And I still feel like we have not addressed those topics. We go get distracted. Okay. I would like to refocus on the three topics I came here to talk about. And I feel like we've gotten distracted from those topics. Now, if you hear that four times, you're gonna be like, shoot, I think we're distracted from the topics
Speaker 2:<laugh>. And
Speaker 1:That is the power of turning the narcissistic behavior back on them in some capacity. Right ?
Speaker 2:Right , right, right, right. But
Speaker 1:Now
Speaker 2:Good, good prevailing over evil though. <laugh> , like , you're using it for good, not evil.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because you, you will frustrate yourself by continuing to respond to them in a way that addresses their question. So like, well, isn't it true that you drive bad and you're gonna try to be like, well, I don't drive bad because of A, B and C. Now you know those things because you've had this conversation 1800 times already. Right? Right. So you have to have something that comes back in the form of, I understand that you believe that's important. It is not important right now we need to move on. Now that directness is gonna do one of two things. It's either gonna enrage the narcissist, which then they have an audience and they can be enraged, or it's gonna get them to fall in line even if they're faking the falling in line, which then accomplishes the task of making the mediation continue. Right? Right .
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 1:Again, working with somebody like you to understand, and that's what we have been kind of trying to talk through things is like, like how do you understand the narcissist in these situations? The other thing that you talked about, which I think sometimes is a reason why they will be involved with the process is the money. Like they, a lot of narcissists, they may have a lot of money, but they don't wanna spend it always.
Speaker 2:Oh, no.
Speaker 1:And they definitely don't wanna spend it on you or this process.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Well that's why they're also inclined to push for mediation because they think it'll be a more cost effective way and that they can overrule control it or control Yeah. The situation better than they would be able to over , uh, to control a judge isn't always true. But , um, yeah, so twofold. So they, they always are the ones pushing for mediation and some in some states it's required. So yes. Um, it's good to have this knowledge, you know, have these tools in your tool belt. So if you do go to mediation, you don't let the narcissist control the scenario. Um, and you , you know, how to not react and how to make it more efficient. And actually, you know, I tell my clients, think of it as a fishing , the ones who have to and know that they wanna go to trial. I'm like, this is a great exercise. Think of it as a fishing expedition. What information can you get from this?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you have to do that two hours of mediation, you should definitely use it to get something. But I think an interesting thing that I want your take on as I've gone through this, I think that when you have a narcissistic spouse, I almost believe that you need to hire a mediator that's the opposite. Sex of the spouse. That's a narcissist. Now, normally you would say hire somebody that's like them because you can kind of use the mediator to tell them how to do it, but in some capacity, if they're opposite, I think they have less control. Now they might not allow it to even happen like that, but like what are your thoughts about that? I
Speaker 2:Would agree with that. I , I'm thinking of the ones that have been successful and they have been women and a narcissistic man, female mediators and a narcissistic man. The ones that stand out in my mind is going really well for my client. So I would agree with that. Um, but the narcissist that sees a female and they go, oh, easy peasy. I'm gonna charm the pants off of this mediator. Right? I'm gonna have her eating outta my hand. I'm gonna like control this whole scenario. But if the mediator is well versed in this type of disorder, yes , then maybe not.
Speaker 1:And vice versa could also be true. If you had a narcissist woman Mm-Hmm , <affirmative> you might want to leverage. You know, again, you know, if if you're , if you have to do that mediation, it is a fact finding , use it for your benefit. Um, another thing, 'cause I know we've been talking a lot about this and I do love it, but , um, one thing that I think we also were gonna talk about is that like, let's say you can get through this divorce, right? Let's say you still need to communicate with them in some capacity, you know, is is there any healthy communication with a narcissist after this or not?
Speaker 2:Okay? Would it be fair to say, would you agree with me if I said narcissists can hold grudges longer than anyone? Right? They're , they've got the you're dead to me gene . Right? They can cut people out. They , they hold on forever. Okay? So with that in mind, they are never going to treat you with any kind of dignity or respect, right? You have inflicted their worst nightmare injury that they've worried about their whole life. They've, they've always been afraid of abandonment. And you leaving them has created this injury that they only dreamt could happen. That it was so horrifying. And you must be punished. You must, for the rest of your life, be punished for hurting them this way. So even if they deserved it, even if they left you first, even , it doesn't matter in their mind, they've been abandoned. So it will never be better. They will never get past it. So if you have children, you have to continue to communicate. You have to use this gray rock method where you give no emotion. You, when you , uh, hopefully you can stay on a parenting app. If they won't, then you only email not even texting because it's, it can be too intrusive. You only email , you don't open that email. The second you see it pop into your inbox, you open the email when you are prepared to open it, when you're in the right head space , not when you're frantically trying to do five things at one time. And Right. You control the situation. So you have tea , meditate, talk to a coach, whatever, to get in the right place. And then you open the email with the preparation of what it might say. Now you respond to the email with only the information that's necessary. Not, I hope not. I wish not I want, it's just this, this, this, this is the time , what time? This is the time. What place? This is the place not, well , you shouldn't , you can find that out for yourself. You shouldn't just the place. Right? No more, no less.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no response or a direct response. Right?
Speaker 2:Just, just logistics.
Speaker 1:Yeah,
Speaker 2:Just like , just the facts. Just the facts not, well , Susie really wanted to go and I wish you would . No ,
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you're really not in that relationship anymore. Like, you really, you can't have any control over that, that person at that point.
Speaker 2:And any information you give them will be used against you. They will front run sabotage, undermine, try to ruin your plan. If, if you, if you think Susie is going to be hurt by something, then that's what he's gonna do because he wants you to hurt. But he doesn't care about Susie. He Right . He might claim to care about Susie. My children are the most important thing in the world to me. I would do ever , I own , I live for my children. I only care about my children. But oh, if I don't let her go to that birthday party on my time, that's gonna upset her mother. 'cause she knows it's gonna upset her. That's what I'm think . Yeah , yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, that is so true. So whenever you say, oh yes, pick Susie up at seven, and she's really sad because you missed that thing. You basically giving them ammunition to use against you. 'cause you now, because you're talking about it, it frustrated you. You're mad because you hurt Susie. Right ? Right . And you're telling your spouse , your ex spouse at this point that I'm mad because you hurt Susie and oh my, you're so right.
Speaker 2:That's what wanted , that's what they wanted. Also, you can't, you can't give them any , um, any changes. Like, okay, so whatever your, your plan is, whatever your parenting plan is, it's no gray area. You button that up so tight, all like, well, if this doesn't happen, then this is what will happen. Like, if you don't do this, then this is, you have everything built into the plan. So there's no need for any communication. Then you stick to the plan. Oh, but my boyfriend's family is taking us to The Bahamas and they invited the kids and it's on his time, and I want the kid , they're not going, they're just not going, not this time. They'll live. Like, don't ask for a switch. Don't give a switch. Nothing. Just, I'm sticking to the plan. No, regretfully, that won't work. I have , I'm sticking to the plan. Let's stick to the plan. I'm sticking to the plan. It's never worth it. There's no free lunch.
Speaker 1:That is really good advice. And I think that , um, I wanna talk a little bit about how people can contact you and get more information, because I think, you know what, I think going forward too , you know, how we structure this is gonna be interesting because I think that a lot of people have questions about like, okay, my narcissistic spouse did this. Like, what does it really mean? Because each time you think like a rational person, <laugh> , it's like completely different. And so we might wanna talk about some of those like ways that we rationally are like, Hey, a person should show up like this, but they're a narcissist, so they show up like that. You know? And like how maybe we can , um, but if people want to work directly with you, because I will tell you, like, I have been double downing on understanding how to negotiate with a narcissist because it is so prevalent. And so, and I will tell people that if that is something that you're gonna have to deal with, like you cannot be too prepared. Like you cannot be over prepared to deal with a narcissist because they're crafty and they're still going to come up with something else. You know? So if we work , if I work with you, I'm really working with like how to, you know, 'cause the reality is the only way to break free from a narcissist is to work on yourself. And
Speaker 2:No , nobody wants to hear that. We think that they're the ones who need to change, but they won't. They can't. Yeah . All we can do is change how we react to them
Speaker 1:And, and how we operate. Because a lot of the narcissism is brainwashing and gaslighting and telling you things that aren't really true, but then you start to believe them. So you don't know what is true or not. And they use that against you in divorce too. Like, they'll make you question yourself. Yep . So if they come to any of your networks, what are, how are you working with people right now? Of course . And what are some of your
Speaker 2:Resources? Course , of course. I have one-on-one coaching, but I also have this group program called Reclaim Your Power. So I, this is really the best hybrid model I think that I've ever come up with. Um, where you get the best aspects of one-on-one coaching, because I do coach each person individually on the call. But you get that sense of camaraderie and that feeling of community, and there's so much weight on that because it's, it's a very lonely experience. And if someone hasn't been through it, they can't understand what this is like. I mean, all of my, well-meaning friends, you know, when I was going through a divorce or just like, oh, well why don't you just blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't understand. Why is that such a big problem? Why don't you just say this? So my favorite is , why don't you just call the judge and tell him what he did, <laugh> ? It's like , you know, why don't you just call the judge. Okay. So you're, you're, you have a community of people who are either right, where you are, right behind you, right ahead of you, you're learning from each other. All these instances that come up, we're talking about. So you're sharing your experience, it's helping other people. There's no better feeling when you have felt so victimized than to think you can help somebody else in that spot, right? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . So it's a lovely, wonderful non-judgmental group. Um, they have a private Facebook group where they talk all day, every day, anytime they need to, they need some support or they have questions or they need some suggestions on how to handle something. Um, I edit things for them. I edit emails for their, their co-parent or for their lawyer or whatever in the group. Um, so it's a very, a lot of support. There are modules that they watch that , uh, are part of this, that an online course module that they watch. And so it's a rolling group. They come in , uh, for , it's a three month long program, but you don't have to wait for the next one to start. People are coming in all the time. It's ever clean .
Speaker 1:Well, and not that narcissism always equates to abuse, but those traits when they're prevalent, usually equate to some level of abuse, even if you don't like that word. Um, it is levels of an experience that other people understand. And it's, it's also like a hamster wheel that you have to actively get off and stay off. Yeah . Right? Like, and it constantly wants to pull you back on that or Yeah .
Speaker 2:Like the cycle seven times. Right.
Speaker 1:Or you have to understand that if you are the victim, that you could be also a target for a different narcissist. So you have to change how you, you
Speaker 2:Do, you do. And that's really important. So that is another thing that people are so worried about, like, how am I gonna not be attracted to another narcissist? It's like narcissists are no longer going to be attracted to you when you do this work.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah. I love that. That is perfect. Well, we appreciate you so much and you have a lot of tiktoks going on, and Instagram and information, and you know, all I would say is that if you're divorcing a narcissist, you need to get prepared, and part of it is preparing yourself for it. So , um, so we appreciate your information and we're gonna have you come back and talk more about it, but at least we,
Speaker 2:We covered a lot . Melissa , I love being on your podcast . Well , thank you , Victoria . I .