Co-Parenting Styles: Conflicted, Cooperative, and Parallel Strategies

Hi, welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a valuation expert and divorce mediator in St. Louis Missouri – specializing in divorce and partner disputes.  

Today we will discuss Co-Parenting Styles: Conflicted, Cooperative, and Parallel Strategies with Cristin Terri. Cristin is based in Cape Town, South Africa. She is a certified divorce coach, co-parenting specialist, holistic counselor, and meditation teacher and offers valuable support to individuals going through the challenging process of divorce. 

Melissa Gragg  
CVA, MAFF 
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues  
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC  
melissa@bridgevaluation.com  
http://www.BridgeValuation.com  
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com  
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com  
https://www.valuationmediation.com  
Cell: (314) 541-8163

Cristin Terri
https://www.cristinterri.com/
cristin@cristinterri.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Greg , and I'm evaluation expert and divorce financial mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. I specialize in divorce and partnership with disputes, but today we're gonna discuss something a little bit different and we're talking about parenting strategies and a guide of how you can maybe start to understand co-parenting styles during and after divorce with the infamous the famous Kristen Terry . Now, Kristen is based in Cape Town, South Africa, but she's a certified divorce coach, a co-parenting specialist, a holistic counselor, a meditation guru teacher, and she also supports people going through the challenging process of divorce. Welcome, Kristin . How are you?

Speaker 2: 0:51

Hi. I am doing really well and you, Melissa <laugh>

Speaker 1: 0:54

Very well. So in the mediation space, we deal with a lot of divorce, and one of the things, and you and I talk a lot about interesting things that happen in the background of divorce, and I deal with the money, right? Not so much always with the parenting. So one of the things that we have talked about is that a, a big piece of this , uh, divorce process is understanding what's gonna happen with the kids, understanding how we're going to operate, you know, either during the divorce, even telling the kids, but then during the divorce and then after the divorce. And some of it has to do with co-parenting styles and really kind of, you have talked about these styles and I don't think people totally understand them, and I think you need to go a little bit deeper into your own styles and your spouses soon to be ex-spouses styles because it's about the kids. Right? So maybe if we just start it off, what patterns do you see in co-parenting in , in during divorce that you can start to maybe elaborate on and help us understand?

Speaker 2: 2:14

Yeah , so the most prevalent patterns I would say is definitely lack of communication. Um , that's usually prevalent in the marriage as well. So to expect people to go from a marriage that had a lack of communication to now all of a sudden they are focused on the kids, but they still don't have the communication, right? Um , so I work with my clients on that communication. We see other patterns of neglecting to look at or to consider the effects of what the kids are need or what kids' needs are. Um, we see continued conflict as well, because you can't just expect a high conflict marriage to now all of a sudden be zero conflict. Um, and the different parenting styles may even take , um, different phases. You might start with one and you guys master parallel parenting, and as the emotions start , start deciding and you can end up going more towards a co cooperative co-parenting style, there's many different patterns that you see. Like I say , lack of communication. Also, people tend to rush the process when everything's still feeling really raw and emotional and they underestimate their emotions in that time, and they try and make decisions on their co-parenting styles for the long term , but they're making them in a highly emotional state as well. So I usually recommend people, we work on lack of, we work on the communication, we try and slow the process down. We work on the emotional processing. We work on redirecting the focus to the children at all times , um, without considering your own emotions during the process.

Speaker 1: 4:00

Well, and I think it's interesting because communication, you're in two different stages and part of this is talking about what happens during and after the divorce. And just from like a big picture communication standpoint, I think in a divorce when you're in the divorce, you might be living together, so your communication might be in person , right? Yeah . And then post-divorce, you're moving towards communication that might be email or text, and you're not as beholden to each other, you know? So is even that part of the issue of communication?

Speaker 2: 4:38

Yeah , it's a , it's a lot easier for people to say things via text and blast out nasty things via text as opposed to maybe what they would do in person. Um, you know, people feel braver behind the phone, just like bullies would feel braver behind the phone as well. Um, in divorce, people generally the written texts and emails can be even more harsh than conflict in person.

Speaker 1: 5:07

Okay. And in person, sometimes you have an audience and sometimes you don't, right? Yeah. Which becomes important, especially with kids around, right? Yes .

Speaker 2: 5:19

So something I generally tell my clients is any post-divorce or during the divorce, if you're not living together, any meetings need to be in public. Um, it really scales down the level of potential conflict that could happen. Um, if people don't tend to scream and shout , um, as much in public as they do in their homes, <laugh>.

Speaker 1: 5:44

Well, and I think with, with sometimes if your spouse has some behavior issues, like some tendencies that are not , um, adult, like , it's helpful to have them in front of an audience so that they behave a little bit better. But if we're looking at some of these patterns that people exhibit in , um, co-parenting, we're also looking at how the patterns change to post-divorce. So what happens and how does this change when we're actually kind of done with the divorce and maybe don't maybe have less respect for each other, right?

Speaker 2: 6:22

Yeah. Um, sometimes it, it does once the , I I really think it boils down to emotions In the midst of divorce, the emotions are really, really high. Um, but once you've passed that divorce phase and the divorce is finalized, someone's moved on, it might hurt the other person once that person's moved on. But it does help when someone's moved on and it does really draw that final line. But , um, the transitions are always just, it , it's a constant transition. I wouldn't say there's one specific transition that happens. It is from how I co-parented during divorce to a year, post-divorce to two years post-divorce. It's, you've gotta be willing to adapt. And some people live by what was said in the beginning, and children change as well. Children grow, and you need to constantly consider that what may work when your child is three is not gonna work when your child is six or what may work for you when one, when both parents live near each other, you know? Um, it might not work when one parent moves away or things are ever evolving. That's the only constant in life, right? Is that change is inevitable. And , um, the problem with divorce and parenting plans is yes, you try and put out a parenting plan to minimize conflict that everyone's on the same page, and it is really vital , but it does need to be revisited. Um , you need to keep transitioning and keep shifting as the kids grow older, as things as either of you move on and when another parent mo or a stepparent moves in, or there's more kids involved and there's blended families. So it is , it's not a one stop one time thing that you , uh, we've nailed communication now , um, or we're completely focused on the kids. Things are always changing during the divorce process, after the divorce process as well.

Speaker 1: 8:23

Well, and I think that we started off by kind of identifying at least the three concepts that we were gonna talk about today. And they were three different co-parenting styles. To me, it almost feels like you have to first identify, you know, like the odds are if you're getting divorced, you know, there's, there's some sort of conflict in your own relationship, but you also have to kind of figure out first like, where are you deficient in this parenting? Like, how are you doing this parenting during really high conflict, which is a divorce, right? But maybe you could at least kind of start to get us started on maybe even the first one, like conflicted co-parenting. Like what does that even mean? Is that what we're all doing when we're all traumatized? Or is it

Speaker 2: 9:14

<laugh>? So unfortunately conflicted co-parenting is one of the worst ones. Um , people think, oh, I'm still co-parenting. Yay. Um , it's not conflicted. Co-parenting is no better than a conflicted marriage. You're right. Like you're trying , you're getting divorced because of the conflict, but if you don't solve the issues of the conflict, you then end up still with conflicted co-parenting. So it's one of the worst ones. And it is also one of the most prevalent ones as well , um, because parents, the word co-parenting is out there now more than it ever was, but they don't understand that there is a way to co-parent and to say that you are actually co-parenting cooperatively , which is the next one we'll talk about. You need to know that you're minimizing the conflict. If you're co, if you're going through conflict of co-parenting, then you need to look at what other styles are gonna work. Maybe you need to move to less communication or, you know, adapt completely. But yeah, the conflict of co-parenting is the worst case scenario. You might as well have stayed in the marriage. The kids are still there . There's no consistency for the children, there's no consistency for the children. They're still living in two homes, still experiencing the conflict. There's no , um, you know, the parents haven't actually sat down and gone through what each person's role is and set out rules ahead of time, like with the others.

Speaker 1: 10:47

So if, if they're trying, if they're at least doing something right, that maybe they've moved out. Because what I'm hearing is conflicted co-parenting, you could be living apart, right? But you're still not kind of shielding the kids from this, this, you know, the, the conversations and the, the conflict, right? Yeah . So cooperative parent co-parenting is now what, somewhere in the middle when people are trying to do better.

Speaker 2: 11:19

So I'll touch base quickly back on the conflict of co-parenting. What it might actually look like is, you know, you're moving, you've moved in separate homes. You're, you're both taking 50 per 50 50 of the kids. You're trying to take the responsibilities. But when the kids are with this parent, this parent's saying bad things about this parent or inquiring about this parent or at drop offs , it's always snotty remarks or at drop offs of pickups . It's fights or it's trying to get the children to choose a side or having the children think of conflict is constantly about them. The , the , the thing that to remember is it's not divorce that is negatively impacting children. It will have an effect on children, but it's conflict research has proven over and over again that it's conflict that is really negatively affecting children and their, you know, what , how they do in school, their emotional capacity, their social skills, it it's conflict. That's the problem. So conflicted co-parenting you, you really, it's like I said , it is the worst one. It is . Um, you would much rather go to the next step, which would be parallel parenting if you cannot eliminate the conflict for the kids.

Speaker 1: 12:36

Well, and, and the conflicted parenting when I guess whenever you're in the process, you're the , you are the mirror, right? And so if you are dealing with this relationship in this kind of, you know, maybe your own behaviors are toxic as well as the other person, you know, that's the mirror for which your children are responding to relationships in school and their interpersonal relationships. So it really is like both of you either have to do your own work, but then come together and then discuss like, is cooperative parenting now discussing the process that we're going to, you know, like, do we have very strict boundaries? Like, you know,

Speaker 2: 13:28

So what co cooperative parenting would look like is time needs to be set up, set aside, where parents would actually sit down. And a plan is, you know, they negotiate a plan, they make compromises and set out a bunch of rules and boundaries that both of the parents are going to adhere to. And both of the parents do adhere to these rules that they have set out in their plan of how they're gonna co-parent that may look like not speaking badly about the other parent not, and needing to model that, right? Like you say, we are a mirror , and it is easier said than done, but when pe when parents realize how bad the conflict is actually affecting them, and even saying something like, oh , your dad is such an idiot, or Your mom is such an idiot. Anything you say about the other parent children inherently feel they are, and they know they are half that person. So you are indirectly telling them they are an idiot because you're saying dad's an idiot. They're gonna be like, well , if dad's an idiot, and I'm, and mom and dad always says, oh, I'm so much like him. Does that make me an idiot? Um , so it is , we don't realize that it is the conflict and co-parent cooperative co-parenting is really setting those boundaries and both parents adhering to it. It is the ultimate goal for parents to reach. And it is completely doable. Sometimes with a bit of coaching, sometimes with a bit of counseling, the parents need to be able to look at themselves first and recognize what it is, what their role is. Um, understanding something about co-parenting is you may not always have control over the other co-parent , um, or not, may not always. You don't have control over the other co-parent. And just focusing on what you can do in your relationship with your children and adhering to still nurturing and understanding that your children need that other relationship and that other parent wants to be present. Um , I deal with a lot of clients as well. Sometimes the other parents not, not present, or it's an abusive situation or it's a high conflict situation. Um, co-operative co-parenting is the co-parenting that everyone wants to be doing. You wanna be able to be amicable in each other's in in each other's company. If you're going, if you're both going to birthdays together, great, but you don't need to. It may look different for absolutely everyone, but you need to set your own boundaries. What are you comfortable with so that you eliminate the conflict. The goal is the zero conflict because why get out of a marriage if you're still gonna have conflict and your children are still gonna be affected by the conflict? You're trying to eliminate the conflict. And it is sometimes easier said than done, but it does take work and it takes, it takes practice, and it does take , um, I think a huge thing as people do, like you mentioned it earlier, is you lose respect for the other person. And , um, that's a really hard one once you've lost all respect for the other, for the other parent , um, because ultimately they are still your child's parent and whatever their , you know, your kid is still gonna learn from them . And , um, yeah, <laugh> c of co-parenting <laugh>.

Speaker 1: 16:34

Well, and it's, it's interesting because in typical divorces, you know, and obviously we're in different countries, but if, if you just look at a typical divorce, you're , at least for the kids' situation, you're usually coming up with some sort of parenting plan, right? And we're usually talking about like, what day are you going to transfer the children? Like who's gonna have the holidays? But what you're talking about is really setting up some boundaries, some, you know, rubrics that you both agree to, right? And do you see people putting some of this language in the parenting plans because not, not like you would be legally bound by it, but just as a reference point to that you both are agreeing to kind of operate and , and , and just, you know, like a , a , a good faith type of situation. Yeah . Or, or having this discussion even about it, because I don't see people talking about how we're going to co-parent Well, right? Yeah,

Speaker 2: 17:44

Yeah. In the beginning phases it is just about how are we gonna do this? But people are not considering, when you go through divorce, it's one of the common mistakes as well as not considering future co-parenting dynamics. You're so stuck in this phase right now. And just trying to get through the basics of, yes, who's picking up at school the necessities , who's paying for this? Who's driving the kids here? How many days, how long, you know, you're not considering the smaller details that bring up a lot of conflict during co-parenting relationships. And you can minimize a lot of that if you sit down for two hours, three hours whilst however long it takes you, and actually get up all those nitty gritties of, and have someone potentially like a coach like myself or a counselor or someone experienced to guide you on things like haircuts matter, you know, or piercings matter depending on what the kid , these are huge things that can co can absolutely blow up a good co-parenting relationship when, you know, all of a sudden it goes wrong when the , the dad lets the son get a tattoo or , um, religious backgrounds or, you know, one of them takes the child to a new church or so considering the longevity or the whole child's kind of their, their entire childhood and not just considering the necessities of days and pickups , but what may still happen. And people don't always have the , the insight or the foresight to know what may still happen. So it really does help having a coach or someone that can say, look, have you guys discussed this? Have you guys discussed this? Have you considered how you're gonna handle this situation? Have you considered, have you spoken about when the other partner meets someone? How do you introduce them? Or when are you comfortable introducing the kids? These are huge aspects that are completely overlooked in the general parenting plan here in South Africa. I did have a look at the one that you sent me as well, and it's so basic. It is so basic and leaves so much room for more conflict. Um , I , I'm sure you can see the whole thing is conflict. It's the conflict around divorce. That's the huge problem for kids. Um , so yeah, trying to get you, sometimes you won't know what you need to be thinking of , of, and I mean, we do live in the internet world now, so you can start researching it, but coaches, counselors, the narrative is changing because the research is showing what part is damaging to, to the children. So how do we fix that part that's most damaging to the children?

Speaker 1: 20:22

Well, and it's, it's interesting because you're bringing up, you know, divorce coach, and I'm gonna kind of pause 'cause I know we're going into a good topic that , um, everybody's gonna wanna know more about. Um, but I wanna just take a brief opportunity to talk about that a little bit. Like I do divorces from a financial aspect, right? In a certain couple random states in the us Uh , because I focus on the financial, I don't get into the parenting plan as much, so I've done this for 20 years, right? I , I probably see the most divorces go through mediate , I mean, hundreds a year, right? And I can still sit here and tell you that if you wanna talk in depth about a parenting plan, I am not the person. Okay? And, and I think that you have to understand that in this divorce world, that we're not just saying get the right players because everybody, you know, wants to be involved. We're saying get the right players based on your situation and if this is an important thing or piece of, you know, like if you don't have kids, obviously it's not a big deal if you do. Like if we sit here right now and somebody said, well, what would you think about a parent to be ? I'm like , I don't know , like, go ask Kristen . Right? So I want I want you to tell just a little bit about, you know, like that you have to work with somebody that has some experience or has been doing research and knowledge in this, not just had their own divorce, right? That's a piece of it that gets people motivated, but a divorce coach is a little bit different. Can you just give us a little bit of like, how does that person interact with somebody during this process?

Speaker 2: 22:14

I love how you always bring up that you don't do the parenting plans because I don't do the finances. <laugh> don't bring me the finances. I'll deal with the kids and the emotions <laugh>, right ? I don't wanna deal with the numbers. So we're a great pair here . Um, but yeah, how a divorce coach helps is what you guys do is dealing with all the finances. Generally people run straight to the attorneys, which you and I both have certain feelings about the attorneys and , but you only really need counsel once you've kind of got an idea and gathered yourself around what's going on. You can't expect them to know what's going on. You need to figure out your own finances and figure out what you want for your kids. But you might not know what are the , what are the options out there. So working with the divorce coach, we really process the emotions with you. We help you with the documentation, of course, understanding what's next, but understanding there are options and alternate dispute resolutions and alternate kind of ways to approach co-parenting. Everyone thinks, oh well you get divorced. Um , well , not everyone thinks, but you get divorced. Mom gets the kids dad's, the dad's a weekend, dad, you know, gone Is that, that is gone because men in this generation are more active parents and they want 50% of their kids. So they don't, there's not a lot around how can you shape these really great parenting plans that it just flows and go into more detail. Don't believe , don't just focus on the big things. The more detail there is, personally for me in a parenting plan, the less room for error. If you both sat here and you looked each other in the eye and you group agreed on this, you agreed on this. And it is, like I said , a , a good faith agreement. Um, but you know, if you're focused on the kids, you want the best for your kids. And why wouldn't you want to know? What are the best ways to do this? And how can I structure this? And sometimes a lot of the time for the moms to let go of 50%, I coach them on, you know, stop looking at the loss and start looking at what can you do in that time and how can you propel yourself in the time that you don't have your kids or take care of yourself because fill your own cup up in that time, they don't think about that. They just see the loss because it is , it's a huge fear. It's a huge loss. Especially if there's another woman. Is this woman gonna replace me or is there another man? Is this man gonna replace me as dad? There's so many different things that go through our minds and worries with our kids, but structuring a parenting plan with more detail and using a divorce coach to actually lay out these are, these are some parenting plans that I've seen. This works for these parents because of their situation. This is an option that could work for you because you know, you guys aren't that conflict a high, there's not a lot of conflict in this, or you two can't even sit in the same room. I would suggest let's do some parallel parenting, rather. Let's minimize drop walks . Let's minimize communication where possible. Let's get as much in that parenting plan agreed on in one five hour sitting or two hour sitting , that you need to be. And you don't have to come back to it because you guys have already sat with this , this heavy question. You've made a decision. If you do wanna come back to it in two or three years or five years time, great. Being flexible on that is fantastic, like I mentioned earlier. But you know, the basic parenting plan leaves room for a lot of error .

Speaker 1: 25:46

Well, and, and I think that you're, what you're doing by working with a coach, even at the beginning, 'cause this could be the first person that you kind of contact, right? It's not the attorney, it's just somebody that you relate to, you kind of get, that gives you an efficient, like, we're like, you're, you're just sort of a guide, right? You're like, I'm gonna lead you down the path of least resistance in this process. But also it's a lot of questions at the beginning, you know, and you are asking sometimes the questions to the wrong person. Like you're asking these questions that are very emotional based to an attorney and they're like, yeah, don't care. Talk to your therapist. Well , therapists are usually trying to keep people together so they don't have the same reference point. And then, you know, a divorce coach feels like, oh, that's, you know, like, am I giving up or am I doing this? But really it's coming up with the plan. So that's all I I wanna get, you know, like taking a brief idea because having a plan, like you said about what you want before everybody comes in and layers in what should a coulda, woulda kind of situation really gets you clear on, on, on this process. So talking with a coach, I think is a piece that maybe some people think is a little bit more fluffy. And I actually think that it's a good first start to understand. Nobody wants to answer those beginning questions, right? Yeah . And so if you have somebody that can answer some of that, it takes some of the heat even off of a mediator, you know? Yeah . A mediator is gonna be glad that somebody's in there kind of having this conversation , um, and talking it through. Um, but it does lead us to our final, what is our final delightful co-parenting style that we're gonna talk about,

Speaker 2: 27:40

About the final one is parallel parenting parallel there , there's kind of another little baby one at the end, but parallel parenting. So obviously we don't wanna be doing conflicted co-parenting cooperative co-parenting is the ideal, but parallel co-parenting is the one that comes in handy for abusive situations, narcissistic situations, really high conflict situations where you minimize as much contact as possible with each other. You know, drop offs happen at school. Each parent is parenting completely individually and they haven't agreed on the same set of rules. And it , it is not the best style , but it is the best style if there is conflict, because at least you're eliminating the conflict. But the cons of that is the kids are gonna be living two very different lives that are not in alignment with each other. So they could be being raised by a whole different set of rules in this home and a whole different set of rules in this home. Um , it is of course best case scenario, like I said , abusive situations, but ultimately that does cause a lot of instability in the children's lives. So yeah, parallel parenting.

Speaker 1: 28:54

Interesting. So this is maybe, and I I thought about it when we were talking about maybe putting this more into a parenting agreement, but parallel co-parenting is gonna be in situations where we really have a pretty significant narcissist or somebody that , um, you know, like a narcissist is gonna forget that they agreed to do certain things a certain way, you know, and they're, they're never gonna even agree that they signed the document that lists that they said that they would do that. So it really is, you know, establishing your boundaries, establishing how you're gonna do things right in a , in a very formal way.

Speaker 2: 29:36

Yeah, definitely. And then the final one, I think that the baby one that I wanted to mention was nesting. Um, that is usually best for when the kids are really little. It's something that I did really early on. Um, when I got divorced or filed for divorce, I was three months pregnant, so my youngest didn't actually know dad at all. Um , he only met him after the first year. So , um, due to the covid pandemic and dad working away, he couldn't fly and he couldn't get back. So we ended up doing his nesting, and that's where the children stay in the same home. So instead of the children moving homes in a co-parenting situation, they go to mom's home and dad's home . It's better for the little bubbas and the younger children to actually stay in the home. And it offers them a lot of stability and the parents alternate in and out of the situation. So the parents , so the kids are staying there and it's just the parents that are changing. So a nice little one to consider that I don't even think a lot of people really are aware of. Um , when I mentioned that I was having my ex stay at my house, people were like, what <laugh> , um, how are you doing that? And I just said, it's what's best for the kitties . And I would go and stay away and he would stay with the kids and we would swap around. And there were even evenings where, you know, in the very beginning where he , we both stayed in the same home because he needed to kind of see how did bath time happen, get to know the kids a little bit and build up that rapport. Um , so it's always, there's so many different scenarios that happen in divorce and so many different things that, you know, need to be taken into consideration. Distance is one of them. One of my clients, I know he, they got divorced, he lost everything in the divorce , um, finances to legal fees and had to move eight hours away from his three kids. His dad , his brother was able to give him a job. And , um, this dad made an effort to drive eight hours once a month. That's all he could afford to go and see his kids for a whole weekend. And he made , he made it work. And that's the , that's the way they could make it work, right? Mm-Hmm , <affirmative> . Um , so there's distance, there's conflict, there's communication, there's, you know, there's finances to consider. You know, one parent might be wealthier and be the fun parent. One parent might be the struggling parent. So every single person or every single marriage and co-parenting relationship is going to look different. And finding what works for. Now, you might start with nesting and then move to cooperative co-parenting or, you know, however it looks for you. Um , or you might start parallel parenting and you know, might go into a little bit more. You wanting to kind of support each other more, but there's still conflict. And you might have a phase of conflict of co-parenting, but then you kind of work through all those little things and you get to that ultimate cooperative co-parenting phase. It does take time, but our children learn from, you know, we are all human, we all make mistakes. We, you know, the communication with your children on this age appropriately is always really important.

Speaker 1: 32:52

Well, and I think even with the concept of nesting, when you describe it to somebody that the parents are gonna be shifting back and forth to the main house and the kids stay pla in place. You know, part of it is even having that discussion to, first of all, if you haven't heard about it, that's why you talk to a divorce coach. 'cause they'll tell you things that you didn't even think was , uh, an issue. But also if it makes you kind of cringe because you're like, Ooh , I would've to pick up and move, it gets you in the mentality of how you should think about what your kids are doing, right? And so it , and how

Speaker 2: 33:28

Your kids would feel,

Speaker 1: 33:29

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> about packing up every single week. And, you know, so if you can eliminate, like, okay, then you think, okay, well what would make me happier if I was the one that was going back and forth, you know, to have the same things in both locations, you know, to have , um, consistency with maybe even my same bed, my same sheets. Sometimes they want different rooms. Sometimes the one , you know, like, what would I want? And then if you can reverse and say, okay, like, let's make sure my kids have that too. You know, like, if I don't wanna pack up my toiletries every single time, let's make sure my kids are not doing those sorts of things. You know? So it gets you to think kind of outside the box a little bit more. Um, but I think that in general, what, what do you think kind of having gone through this process with kids as well, you know, what are some of the tips you have for parents that are going through this and maybe even the importance of, you know, these discussions around parenting?

Speaker 2: 34:34

Mm-Hmm . Um , my first one, I think it's because , um, it was something I did is rushing the process. When things are raw. You, you phone a lawyer, you tell , you know, you, everything is just so raw. I would take time, take the time before going through divorce and making these vital decisions that are gonna impact your children. Take a separation first. Don't rush the process at all. Um , seek therapy, counseling a coach. It's crazy to me. We have life coaches, we have business coaches, we have birthing coaches, we have coaches for everything nowadays, but divorce coaching is still so new and it's probably the most difficult thing that most people will go through is a divorce. It's your whole world shifting. So finding someone to help you through that phase that's qualified and has the skills, someone that has the understanding and the empathy, maybe that has been through it themselves. There'll be different divorce coaches, you'll resonate with someone, but getting that person that knows options , um, because the narrative we often tend to not often tend to, we definitely rely on our closest friends and family for support immediately after finding out or making the decision. And they can be really damaging narratives around that. You know, take him for everything. He's got, oh , he did this. I can't believe he did that. He doesn't deserve the kids. Or, and that's really damaging to your kids. If that is the narrative that you're going into this co-parenting relationship with, you need to consider future co-parenting dynamics. And what would you ultimately like to have in the end? Even if, even if you can't get there right now, a divorce coach can really help you. Okay, this is what I would like, this is my ideal situation. And coach you through how to get there, whether it be setting boundaries, learning negotiation skills, and how to negotiate with your ex. Um , something that I did very early in the beginning, you know, a lot of moms fight for the home, the family home. We want the family home, the family home. We built this for our kids. I was exactly the same. And for two and a half years I held onto the home . Um , you know, you as a , on the finance side would've been able to look at me and say, Kristen , can you maintain this house? Or, you know, and moms don't. As a mom, you, you , you , you're so protective of that nest for your children and ultimately had some , when I did my divorce coaching, I was coached on this, on can you financially sustain that house? Do you constantly want to have those reminders in that home? And the moment my ex also, it was gonna be 50 50 splitting the house and I'd learned the negotiation skills and didn't rush the process. I gave a time he'd moved on and I ended up negotiating with him on not taking 50% because I was a stay at home mother at the time. He was working in a career that I was in that couldn't, I couldn't go back because I had to be with the kids. So using the right negotiation skills and having those skills can work to your benefit, and we managed to sell the house. He didn't want to take 50 50 anymore. I negotiated him out of that. And moving into the new home is one of the most refreshing things you can actually do for yourself. I would actually recommend moving , um, because I could have done, I did all the healing I could. I'd seen the therapist, seen the counselors, I'd worked with attorneys, I worked with mediators, I'd done it all. I'd taken the time. No matter what I did, I was still in that space. Um , you and I, Melissa, we talk about energy all the time. And , um, even though though it was , I, I'd done all the mental work to not have to be constantly thinking of all the things that had gone on. There were physical reminders all the time. So , um, tiff , don't rush the process. Learn negotiation skills. I would ideally say the first point of contact for anyone going through divorce in 2023 should be a divorce coach. Because your divorce coach is then gonna forward you onto , Hey, instead of getting a really expensive accountant, there's people that do finance mediation. Instead of rushing to your lawyer and paying a retainer and you're in it for the long run, get what you want, get as much as you can done by using a divorce coach. Know all your options available to you because I'm not here to just win the legal battle or get fine . You know, I'm here to make sure that for me, ultimately the children, like I say, but you're gonna have all your options laid out in front of you instead of just the legal route. And you're gonna know alternate dispute resolutions, and you're gonna know different options on structuring parenting plans. And the divorce coach is gonna lead you to build kind of , I like to call your divorce team, right? You'll have your valuation mediation, you'll have your divorce coach, and then you can consult with your lawyer on the small legal parts that you need to know where you stand legally. But you don't need to have that as a whole and your first point of contact , um, because it's every email, every text. We've spoken about this , I don't know how it works there with you guys, but here in South Africa, every email, every text, every consultation, everything is charged when you're working with the legal team.

Speaker 1: 40:19

Oh, oh, yeah. I mean, you know, in dealing with this type of situation, I think we just posted , um, something recently about the fact that I think that people rush at the beginning and they should , you know, like realistically, you should slow down at the beginning and make a plan. And then once you have the plan, you pedal to the metal can move forward as quickly, and then you can use time as your , you know, like as a leverage, basically. You know, you're ready to hit the gas, you're ready to stop. Um, and, but you're prepared and understand it now. So I agree. I think that we, and it's also giving yourself some time even post-divorce, to like, what about making a perfect nest? You know, like, what about making something that's good for you in this new phase of, you know, your life and your chapter and things like that. But I think the one final thing that you were also gonna do for us, you know, give us any additional tidbits, but maybe even just in general, give us some idea of how you moved through some of these co-parenting styles, like in your own situation. Because I think that people can listen to this and they're like, yeah, but I I , I get it, but like, I don't totally understand it, you know, like, I don't, I don't know where I'm right or wrong. Like I'm just, I'm just trying to get through the day, like, you're, you're you , you know, like I just tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll fix it. But it's, it's a little bit bigger than that. It's really, you know, it's, it's a process and it's a self-reflection, but maybe you could give us, you know, kind of some of your experience and we could reference it and kind of pull it all together. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 42:08

Yeah. Um , so actually something came up in my mind immediately. There is someone going through my divorce. One of my really close friends mentioned to me one day and she was like, you know, some things can't be rushed, and sometimes you just need time. And I really think divorce is one of those things. And those moments with time, because the emotions when we are so emotional, you cannot think clearly . I , I look back , um, a little while ago, my ex and I are co-parenting, well, although he's not around often, so I kind of say I'm more a single parent , but when he is here, it is minimal conflict. We really co-parent well , um, the communication is great, but it used to be hotheaded and, you know, we could eventually, I had to set boundaries for myself on whenever he messaged. I would give myself 24 hours. I would not reply within the first 24 hours no matter what. And so many times I would wanna reply and I'd write things down, and I would write them down in my notes. Uh , I've had so many emails and messages written down in my notes, 24 hours, just 24 hours. That's all one day. And you'll want those emotions. You process it , but you also need the tools to process your emotions, not just sitting with it. You know, go for a run, go do whatever it is, how you learn to process your emotions. Um , I work on my clients with that as well. But you know, that is 24 hours can make the world of difference in what you've send back. And one of my clients actually said to me the other day, they , um, used chat GBT to <laugh> . They wrote an email and said, chat GBT , can you remove all the emotion from this <laugh> to

Speaker 1: 44:03

That's brilliant.

Speaker 2: 44:04

And it just seems a very business, like you've gotta see it as a business transaction. And your children are a business that you want to grow, and you need to see it as a business partner. You're not gonna go scream and shout at your business partner in public because they're, they went out drinking last night or whatever the case may be. And so my personal experience was very rocky in the beginning. Um , a lot of emotions. And that's why say don't rush the process, because the emotions in the beginning, we cannot think clearly. If your emotions are up here , you've got about this much space for clear thinking. So when you're fed up, you need to kind of bring those emotions down first. Don't rush the process. Um, if you cannot verbally communicate with your ex-partner, stick to written written formats. There's wonderful co-parenting apps nowadays as well that log everything. It also, AI generates , um, a kinder response. Um , it'll suggest, can we remove this word <laugh> ? Can we remove that word? So technology is helping , um, it keeps track of all the kids' activities, expenses, who paid what to co-parenting apps nowadays. Fantastic. To yet again, eliminate some of that conflict. Um, yeah, and set boundaries. Setting boundaries is a big one. I know when in the beginning I was like, well, what does that mean? How do I, what do, what do you mean by setting a boundary? I don't understand it. And setting a boundary could look like drop offs happen at the gate. Your partner doesn't come in your home, your partner does . Or the ex-partner doesn't come in the home to fetch the kids. You know, it might be invading your space if you don't want them in your home setting. A boundary may be , I don't want you to phone me. If you have something to say, send me a text message because when you phone me, you call me names send you. But when you text or you email, maybe you don't do that. Or setting a boundary for yourself in , I'm gonna wait 24 hours before I respond, or I'm going to delete them on social media and not constantly check what's going on in their lives. Um , something I did at , we were living in the social media era from day one, I immediately deleted the best friends. I deleted him. I , because I didn't want to be triggered. Um , and we all have triggers. And if you got those triggers in your face all the time, if your ex is coming in your house or you go in their house and you see things you don't wanna see, we've gotta eliminate the triggers, right? It's not our fault that we may be triggered, but we need to eliminate those triggers and reduce the potential for feeling triggered.

Speaker 1: 46:53

Well, and I think that we get addicted to the triggers, and they we're so used to that they're kind of normal, like that rollercoaster of like a highly volatile relationship, you know, kind of, you're like, oh , what am I gonna do when things are peaceful? Like I don't know how to handle that. You know, like those types of things. And another thing, oh my gosh, I don't even know if I'm gonna remember at this point, but an interesting thing that you said about the chat, GPT , okay, so I'm gonna pull it around to, we interviewed somebody named Victoria, and she is a narcissistic coach, divorce coach. And she said something very interesting when you're getting divorced to a narcissist for communication, and it kind of ties into this, is that when you're in the divorce , uh, with a narcissist or even a supposed narcissist, right? That's showing up as one , um, that saying please, and thank you is very, very, very powerful, right? But when you are done and you're divorced, you can communicate very direct, and there can be no pleasantries, pick up the kids theater's canceled no more, this blah, blah, blah, <laugh> , and you don't have to, so there is commu , you know , like yeah , even communication wise that would shift, you know, like to get through the divorce, you might need to be a little bit, you've

Speaker 2: 48:11

Gotta bottom them up a little <laugh>,

Speaker 1: 48:13

And you're gonna hate it as a , like, you , you don't even wanna talk to the narcissist. You don't wanna communi , like sometimes you're on like absolutely no communication. And then somebody will say, you know, if you could just have a quick conversation, it was like, what, you know, there could be strategic ways that we're using that communication in this type of situation, but I thought it was fascinating that she was like, after you get divorced, no pleasantries, it's just the info , the facts, right? So that type of , um, thing. Now, if somebody wanted to get ahold of you , um, we have a couple different ways that they can get ahold of you. And right now you are doing a lot with schools and parenting and kind of understanding, because we've all been traumatized as children, regardless of who our parents were, even if they were amazing. You know, we all have our, our traumas that we go through , um, but then we kind of pass them along and then they manifest in divorces, they manifest in, you know, difficult parenting. So, you know, even if you're not going through a divorce, you probably need to work on some of these things. <laugh> ,

Speaker 2: 49:29

Definitely, definitely. Um, and like you say , some of our traumas are not our parents. It could be from school, it could be from friends, it could be from siblings. You might have had a sibling who secretively bullied you when your parents weren't watching or intimidated you, you know? Um , a lot of the time I hear people say, oh , trauma from my childhood, and the parents get offended. You know, our generation of parents get offended and we're like, we're not saying it was the parents. It could have been a numerous amount of things. Bullying in school is a huge traumatic event for children. Um , but yeah , I'm working in the schools at the moment. Like my whole goal is working with parents, going through divorce with kids, and , um, currently doing keynote speak talks with the schools for the educators on how to notice children that are experiencing conflict. What are the signs of children experiencing conflict in the home? How to communicate with educators with high conflict parents, how to structure parent meetings separately, if the parents are high conflict, how the educators can actually support the children as well. And through my educ education , through the education system, I'm also reaching the parents and helping them , um, with their parenting styles, just transitioning into trying to get to that cooperative co-parenting phase or at the very minimum, parallel parenting

Speaker 1: 50:55

And, and , um, and they can kind of follow you on some of your socials and get connected to you . But like we said, it's, it's usually a process. And you know, at the beginning, if you're unsure of how to move forward, if you're making the right, if you're unsafe, if you're concerned about these types of things, you know, I think that you, you have to reach out in , um, some way to people that could help you. And we're very conscious of how people connect with us so that we're not , um, you know, pushing it out to, and , and you have to be careful, you know, you like in some cases, you know, your spouse could be paying attention to what you're doing. Um, so it's important to , uh, to, to maybe , uh, cover your trail a little bit. But <laugh> , reach out to Kristen first and then she can tell you how to make sure you do all those things. And we appreciate you , um, coming on here and talking about parenting, and we're probably gonna have some more parenting and some more , um, you know, emotional things to deal with in divorce going forward on the podcast. So , uh, we appreciate that. Any last things that you wanna tell anybody about?

Speaker 2: 52:07

Do we cover ? Not really, except it , it , it's possible. It's possible. Everyone thinks it's impossible until it's done right. Um, it is completely possible to achieve that no matter how traumatic or how high con I would never have said, where I am now with my ex is where we would've been. I would not have said this three years ago. Um , so it is possible, even when it seems absolutely impossible, just give it time .

Speaker 1: 52:33

I love that. Well , uh, we appreciate you and we hope to have you back and , uh, we'll see you soon.