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Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Insights from My Second Divorce: Creating Self Awareness
Hi, welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation strategies and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a valuation expert and divorce financial mediator in St. Louis, Missouri.
Today we are speaking with Leah Marie Mazur about her personal insights from her first and second divorce and how this journey helped her gain clarity and self-awareness. Leah is a certified Divorce Recovery Coach in Buffalo, New York and founder of Mindfully Ready LLC. She specializes in helping her clients heal after divorce so they can create a healthy, happy, and fulfilling new chapter for themselves and their kids.
Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast on veyo series about mediation, negotiation strategies and collaboration. My name's Melissa Greg , and I'm valuation expert and divorce financial mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. Today we're speaking with Leah Marie Maer about her personal insights from her first and second divorce and how this journey helped her gain clarity and self-awareness. Leah is a certified Divorce recovery coach in Buffalo, New York, and founder of Mindfully Ready . She works and specializes , uh, with working with high conflict clients around the country, but she helps her clients heal after divorce so they can create a healthy, happy, fulfilling next chapter for themselves and their kids. Welcome, Leah. How are you?
Speaker 2:Thank you. I'm, I'm good. I'm excited to hang out with you.
Speaker 1:So should we go by Leah Marie ? Is that, is that You
Speaker 2:Can call me Leah . Yeah, either
Speaker 1:Way. Okay. So I actually wanna tell everybody that I found you on TikTok and you talk a lot about , um, kind of divorce in a similar way that I do, which is a lot goes on in the court and a lot goes on financially, but there's a lot of emotions. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2:<affirmative> .
Speaker 1:And there's also kind of, you know, the process of self-discovery as you go through when a relationship kind of , um, deteriorates or ends, because it doesn't have to be bad, it could just end. Yep .
Speaker 2:But
Speaker 1:Maybe if, if we wanna start getting into some of these insights, I think the easiest way to start is kind of take us back to the beginning of like, what, in the first part, like what sort of caused the first thing, you know, like, we can't tell the whole story, but we can certainly, did you identify some of the things that kind of broke down in the relationship that that got you there?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I can, I can tell you, so I'll take you back a little ways. When, when I was 16 years old, I actually witnessed my mom have an asthma attack in our home and die. It was crazy. It was very, very traumatic. And within five years after she passed away, my dad died of pancreatic cancer, and I'm an only child. And between those two losses, I found myself in a relationship with a narcissist. It was horrible. It was extremely abusive. So by the time my dad died, I was a mess. I was so lost. I had no self-esteem full of abandonment issues. I was just going through it, and I really didn't have guidance or support on how to cope or process anything that I had experienced. So I was essentially floating around the planet, just not knowing what to do. And so my coping mechanism became serial monogamy. I was hopping from relationship to relationship for years because I felt like those were the buoys that were keeping me afloat. That was how I could feel like I was a part of something and not feel so alone and isolated. And so when I met my, my first husband, I, we actually first met when I was 19 years old. He hired me at Blockbuster, remember Blockbuster <laugh> . Uh, and so, but we ended up dating on and off. We broke up like four times before we even got married. That should have been a red flag, but I didn't even know what red flags were back then. And we, there was no engage , there was no like proposal or engagement. We had a conversation one day about getting married, and then eight weeks later we were, and we, we got through about five years. We had one daughter. But looking back, so, so clearly I can see that we really just weren't compatible. We did not make a good team. And one of the things that I've shared, and that was hard for me to really accept and come to terms with, was that I was never physically attracted to him. And I convinced myself that that was of me. That was very shallow and that it's what ins it's what it was inside that counts. It's who , who he is as a person. The out outside doesn't matter, but it does, there was a lot missing from that relationship, not just that compatibility piece as far as being a team, but on all those levels, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically, like we did not align. And so I, one of my kind of aha moments was, I remember sitting on the couch watching TV and an eHarmony commercial came on. And I remember saying to myself, God , like, I wish I could do that. I wish I could sign up for eHarmony and like find my person. And I just knew that was kind of my like, oh man, I know that I'm not with the right person. And so I, I wound up getting a divorce and then doing all the wrong things after the first divorce <laugh>.
Speaker 1:So when, when you were going through. So I think that a lot of things that you say resonate with people because, you know, generationally we've been encouraged to get married younger. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You
Speaker 1:Know, we've been encouraged to almost become a person that is a worthy wife or a , you know, like, and really, we were talking about this earlier, like, I don't think people are training men to be like worthy husbands, but definitely we were being trained to kind of be this, you know, quiet and cook and, and be, and then kind of just be okay with whoever comes along and gives you attention and like, oh, well, they could marry you well, you know, they could provide, and all of these things, were those the same things that you were going through because, you know, you didn't have any kind of the foundation of that immediate family Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2:<affirmative> . Were
Speaker 1:You kind of seeking that family? Or how do you think your trauma, because a lot of it for self-awareness is kind of identifying your own trauma. Like Yeah .
Speaker 2:Were
Speaker 1:You able to start identifying like, some of that, that you came into that relationship with?
Speaker 2:I didn't start identifying what was going on with me until after my second divorce, honestly. And that's why I wound up with, with the second divorce, you know, 'cause I did all the wrong things. But that absolutely, I mean, we are primed to have that goal. You, you grow up, you graduate, you get a job, you get married. That's like everybody's framework. And even in, in movies and things that we are inundated with all the time, that's like the message that we were getting. And then you see all your friends doing it and you think, oh, I'm behind. Everyone's getting married. I gotta find my, and so when I wasn't in a relationship, I felt like something was wrong with me. I'm not good enough. I'm not enough. So nobody wants me. And, and I felt like I needed to be in a relationship to almost prove to myself and to everyone else that I was lovable.
Speaker 1:Hmm .
Speaker 2:So I unknowingly settled in a relationship because I just thought, well, this is a good person, so what else matters? <laugh> ? Right . I mean , if he's a good person, that's all I can ask for. Right. And I had no idea what really goes into a successful marriage, a a long-term relationship and , and how to have a healthy relationship because my, me , myself, I wasn't in a healthy place.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, and I think that a lot of times when people kind of start to get divorced, you know, they start to do, well, first of all, it's a process to get divorced, so you might separate, right? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , but still be in the divorce process. How long did it take for you guys to kind of go through that process and how did you cope? Because a lot of people kind of start dating when they're still in the process of getting divorced. Um, you know, like there , it's, it is in a very , it , it's stressful and emotional. So like, having a support system is, you know, what people need, you know? Yes . So what did, what were some of the things that you did when you were in that first divorce? Um,
Speaker 2:Yeah, the first divorce, I, I did all the stuff you're not supposed to do. I did not take the time to self-reflect or heal or build my self-esteem. I immediately hopped into another relationship with someone who I was very physically attracted to. 'cause at that point, I felt like, well, I haven't had this in a long time. So right now that's priority one. That's my goal. And so I, I was in a relationship , uh, right away, unhealthy relationship that lasted about two years. But to me, at that time, that was m my place of solace almost. I used that relationship to get out of the show . That was my divorce. I, it's painful and it's stressful and it's difficult. And financially you're worried. I mean, there's so much going on that having that relationship was almost something that soothed me. And it was an escape from everything that I was going through. And that, that's really a , a really common reason to hop into a relationship really quickly. But it's not a good way to start a relationship. I mean , you're not starting that. It's not a strong foundation to build a healthy relationship on. So again, I was in a relationship for the wrong reasons , still not knowing who I am, what I want, self-reflecting. So it lasted about two years, and I had no self-esteem after that. And again, was back to all that in inner critic, negative self-talk. So what do I do? Well, I go right back on the dating apps. 'cause that was my habit. And , uh, I married the first person I went on a date with. I found him on an app. We, we dated for a few months. He moved in, and then like a year later we were married. And a couple years into that, that was my real aha moment. I will never forget I was in my bedroom. I fell to my knees crying because I knew what I had done. And I knew that I had to go through this all over again because I didn't do anything the right way. And I knew I had to get divorced again. And I was so at myself, and I was so embarrassed, you know, oh my God, what are people gonna think? What does this mean here I am 36, I'm getting divorced twice. I'm , I'm such a mess, all that negative self-talk. Mm . But then that was really the catalyst for something beautiful for me, because that was when I really started my own healing journey. And I, and I started cultivating self-awareness and figuring out why I made the choices I made, and how I got to where I was and empowered myself to make different choices that served me moving forward. And that has really never ended. And that's a journey that really continues forever. And I , I'm still on it, but I'm in such a healthy place now because of all the work that I did after that second divorce.
Speaker 1:Well, and I wanna talk about some of the similarities between , uh, the patterns that you see. But for , but before we get back, just to kind of hone in on something that you said, I think a lot of people, like I have also been handling high net worth of our divorce for like 20 years. And I think that part of, you know, this dynamic is , um, we become this person to, to get married to a person that has potential, right? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And so they're smart. They're going to college, they're gonna be a doctor, they're gonna be a lawyer. They're, they're gonna provide for us and all this thing. And so we, we ignore the need for passion or for like, the thrill, because we've sort of been like, no, get the calm life with the, with the two dogs or the dog , whatever it is . You know, the picket fence kind of concept. But when you look at it, a lot of people who are getting divorced, even from 5, 10, 15, 20 year marriages didn't have that passion for the majority of the time. And then the person actually becomes just horrible to live with or something like, they can't even be a good roommate. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But talk a little bit about how important that is in figuring that out for you. Like, because that is attached to like your passion for yourself and your love for yourself. But
Speaker 2:The passion
Speaker 1:Is a real thing. So a lot of times they come off of this first divorce and they are just like, I'm gonna go hang out with the hottest people, the most ama , you know, like thrill seekers and stuff like that. And is that almost the other extreme that might not also be where, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because there's such a balance. It does really come down to knowing yourself and, and understanding what you need, what you want in a relationship, but what you need in a relationship. Like what are your standards? What are your deal breakers? And I didn't know those things before getting into those relationships. I had no idea. I was just looking for someone who liked me and who felt like taking, taking me on wasn't a burden. That's really how I felt. And, but it is so important because there's so many levels. I mean, you really have to think about this . This isn't like you just fall in love and then this is the person you should be with for the rest of your life. Love is just like a very small percentage of, of how to make that work. There's so many other layers to it, because you're, you're , uh, you're becoming a team. You have to be with somebody who shares common goals. You can have different interests, but you have to have enough in common and see the world in a similar perspective in order for you to reach these goals together. And you can get very specific. I mean, you wanna be asking questions like, what is your parenting style? What is your love language? What is your debt to income re ratio? What's your credit score? Who do you vote for in your political parties? How do you spend your money? How do you save your money? How do you invest your money? All of these little things that we don't talk about or that we're afraid or embarrassed to talk about. We don't wanna offend people. That becomes the big things that wind up destroying relationships because you're not agreeing on things the day-to-day stuff, or the things, the big things that end up coming in and happening. If you guys can't be on the same page, you're, you're up against a wall, what are you gonna do? Then you're, you're married to this person who, who's supposed to be your teammate, but you, there's conflict because you aren't seeing things the same way. But there are also ways to, and I'm not saying in a relationship, there should never be disagreements, but there's also different ways to navigate those disagreements. I mean, one thing I've learned now, and I am now in the healthiest relationship I've ever been because I'm the healthiest I've ever been. But we disagree. Well, we, we don't, there's no door slamming. There's no name calling . There's no throwing. There's, there's no silent treatment. We can just talk about it. We can have a disagreement and then communicate about it, and then move forward. And we respect each other's feelings and thoughts, and it's just so much easier than I've ever experienced in previous relationships where you're feeling like you're trying to fit that, you know, square peg into a round hole.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Well, and I think that some of this comes down to self-worth self love , self-respect. I know that very recently , um, you know, my husband and I had a conversation with a husband. I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna respect every decision, every thought that you have about your own body, your own everything as just the word, right? Like, it just is. I'm not gonna say, oh, do you really think you should do that? Or, oh, do you, because you were talking about some of that self negative talk Yeah.
Speaker 2:That
Speaker 1:Comes into play. And it's sort of like, that is some of the talk that a lot of us had when we were younger of like, you're not good enough. And if somebody loves you, you should just take it. Because Yeah . They may never, you might not be loved. And you also , and your
Speaker 2:Chances will I get, I'm only getting older.
Speaker 1:But you also get that in abusive relationships, even if it , you know, like they, somebody will continue to tell you at the end of the relationship, like, you're unlovable. No one's going to do this, da da da . Yeah . And , and you come out of those relationships with this like <laugh>, no one's gonna Yeah . And you , it's not like a joke. Like, you really have taken that. How did your two divorces affect your self-worth or your view of yourself and impact, you know, like, you can tell me at any transition, but maybe the first to the second or whatever. But it seems like there had to be a , a trajectory where you said, Hey, I'm good enough for this. I now expect better.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah . But how, what , how did you progress through that process?
Speaker 2:Yeah. After my divorces, I definitely had low self-esteem. I was dealing with anxiety and depression and things that I didn't even realize I was going through until after, and I could look back more objectively. But really, the shift for me, it was after my second divorce where I started getting into mindfulness and meditation practice. That changed my whole life because that taught me how to cultivate self-awareness and how to become the observer of my thoughts. Because when your thoughts are running rampant, and then it's causing these emotions in your body that are uncomfortable or that, that you deem as negative, you're essentially, your , your brain is like just taking you through a ride. It's like, it's like an emotional rollercoaster. But what I didn't realize was that I actually had control of that. I could choose my own thoughts. I can decide how I felt about myself. I can use things like affirmations as tools to reprogram my subconscious so that I felt differently about myself. And that's what I started doing. I intentionally would choose different thoughts that in turn gave me different feelings as a result. So it takes practice and consistency, but it's absolutely possible. I, I love affirmations. I still use them every day . When I catch myself kind of thinking something negative or anticipating a negative outcome or something like that, I catch myself because I've cultivated that self-awareness, and I'm aware of what's going on in my brain, and then I can on purpose, choose a different thought. And then that gives you different results. And so that's the, the best tool that helps me. And I talk about this with my clients all the time, because most people are walking around on autopilot. Ev 95% of what we do is controlled by our subconscious. So we're not even re we don't even realize it's just all of these patterns and programs and habits and behaviors that we have that we don't think about or question to, to ask ourselves, where, where did this come from? When did this start? Is this something that I even believe anymore? So if you're feeling like about yourself, if you feel, if you're having those thoughts of, I'm not good enough, no one's gonna want me, I'm only getting , getting older, then it's going to keep you feeling like. So when you can acknowledge that, that's actually the conversation you're having with yourself about yourself, you can decide to say, I am good enough, I am worthy, I am whole, I am deserving I, whatever affirmations you wanna use, the more you, you speak those to yourself on purpose, that becomes your new belief. And then it changes how you feel, and then it changes how you show up in the world, which gives you completely different results in your life.
Speaker 1:Well, and, and I think that one aspect of becoming more self-aware or doing meditation is you have to be aware of your own participation in the relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 1:I think that at the end, when people are getting divorced, especially if you're in, in the divorce, right? Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2:<affirmative> ,
Speaker 1:Everything that's going bad is their fault.
Speaker 2:Totally. Yes.
Speaker 1:And so you get in that, and then you're like, and then you're seeking out things that are bad to be like, see, it's, you are the one, and you're the one. And then when I sit back, and I, I I, and of course I have a little bit different coaching style, which is not always, but it's just the truth. Like, okay , you didn't have access to those accounts. You didn't know where the accounts were, you didn't know how to pay bills. Yeah . But guess what? You , you can, and you have to take accountability. But if you, if you take accountability of your own actions, it then becomes apparent that you might also be part of the problem. And
Speaker 2:You can only <crosstalk> . Yes . That's hard. Yeah . That's hard to look at. It's like that shadow work. Totally. That self-reflection piece is necessary if you really want to heal and empower yourself. Because if you don't do that, you're gonna make the same mistakes over and over and over. You're just going to, it's gonna be like Groundhog Day when you can look back and you can really be honest with yourself and say, what role did I play in this? Where was I mentally and emotionally when I started this relationship? What red flags did I miss or ignore? What boundaries was I, were I not setting? What, what role did I play? Not how is this my fault, but what could I have done differently? Or what do I know now that I didn't know before? When you do that, that will give you a completely different perspective of what kind of choices to make moving forward.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm , <affirmative> . Well, and I think that, you know, it's, it's sort of like, you don't need to say whose fault it is, but it's like, what, what do I no longer wanna do going forward? That was obviously not productive in this situation. That really is a me thing, right? Yeah . It's
Speaker 2:My
Speaker 1:Personality or my issue that somebody responded to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um , or like, did I have unreasonable expectations? Some people get into a relationship thinking that , well, this person's supposed to make me happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And
Speaker 2:That's just not true. You are always responsible for your own happiness in a relationship is somebody adding value to your life. You have to make sure that you are whole and happy and fulfilled all by yourself first before you add a relationship into your life.
Speaker 1:Right. And I think that that is very hard to , for people to understand or comprehend when they're in the mix, and they're sort of like, you know what? Thanks, appreciate that. Great advice, you jerk. You know? But let's talk a little bit about the stigma of the second divorce, because I'm telling you, I do a lot of divorce and people are divorced once two, three. It's like, I think we almost have to get away from giving a sh care about if it, but, but let's at least let's look at what the blessing or the lesson was . Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2:<affirmative>
Speaker 1:Of , you know , you, you obviously had already gotten married and divorced . So Miss Leah , what, why did you have to get divorced a second time? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Like, what did you learn? What Yeah , what made it happen this time?
Speaker 2:So what I learned was you shouldn't rush into relationships, because I didn't take the time to really not only get to know myself, which was problem number one, but really get to know the person that I was marrying. And there was a lot of dishonesty that I didn't catch until it was too late and we were too deep. And so if I would've slowed down and not been in that mindset of lack, I was coming from lack, not feeling good enough, worrying about my finances, afraid I'd be alone forever. So when I found this person that was nice and would take me on, I felt like, well, how many more chances am I gonna get? And so we rushed into things, and it didn't give me enough time. And so as the years progressed, things would come up in our relationship where there would be, he would be lying about things, and he would be, he would, he, like, went through seven different jobs and like the two years that we were together. And there was just a lot of things that we ended up not agreeing on. And again, it's like we didn't make a good team, and this person showed up on their best behavior in the beginning of the relationship. They, they almost created this, this person that didn't exist. And, and , and I know that this happens a lot with narcissists, and I, I , he is not a narcissist, but he's someone who I think just himself. He, he just wanted to be in a relationship badly. He didn't like being alone. And so he put on this facade, and I bought it because I was desperate. And so then in our relationship, as we started just living life and things started happening, we, we disagreed constantly. We were always screaming at each other. We were never on the same page. And it just became something that I, I really lost respect really quickly because of the choices that he would make and the lies that I was being told. And I feel like once that's gone, trust and respect, you're. And that's really, really hard to get back. Trust, respect, communication. I mean, those are such pillars in a relationship. And so I got to a point where I was like, I'm not gonna do this for the rest of my life. There's no way, number one, it's not healthy. Number two, this is not an example that I wanna set for my daughter of what a , what a relationship looks like. And so I decided to leave, even though I knew that it wasn't gonna look great on the outside, and that I was gonna probably get a lot of judgment for it, but I just refused to stay in a relationship that I knew wasn't healthy. And so when I left, I, I knew that I needed to figure out why I kept finding myself in that position so that I could do things differently moving forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, and I think I see a lot of divorces where, you know, men may be wanting somebody in that role, right? Somebody to be the person that they can have relationship with, somebody that they can have clean their house and cook for them and do all these things. Whereas women want a little bit different stuff. Now when you start to introduce money and somebody kind of having control over the money, and then once you to do things their way and like you perform as their companion kind of thing. I think that I've seen some of that happen. And typically it's women are just in a people pleasing type of like, okay, I wanna be the best wife. I wanna be the this, I wanna be the, that. I don't ask questions. I don't know where the money comes from, you know? And some of that is based on just not being upfront with our own needs, our own desires, our own, you know, minimum, if you will. So if we, if we talk about some of this, like, how do you think some of these divorces affected how, you know, 'cause so now you have the first divorce and the second divorce. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2:<affirmative> .
Speaker 1:But were , did you feel like you had really healed before the second one? Or did a lot of your healing have to come in after those divorces? Like what kind of made , you know, like what were some of the changes even that you made about how you saw relationships going forward?
Speaker 2:I, yeah, I did no healing or self-reflection after my first divorce, which is why I hopped right into another relationship. And then from there, hopped right into another one. So after the second divorce, I started doing all the things, reading books, listening to podcasts, journaling, meditating. I just, when I was in the process of divorcing my second husband, I had to stay in the marital home for about six months before I moved out, because I had to save money so that I could afford to leave. And so I spent a lot of time in my room by myself. And then on the weekends when he was home, I would just leave. I would go somewhere else so that I could just reflect and process. And then when I had gotten into a , a new space to live , um, I lived there alone for about two years. And even though I still dated, I said I would still go out, like when my daughter wasn't home or when she was gone, you know, with her dad for the summer, I would still date. But it was so different than anything that I had experienced before, because my mindset was different. When I was showing up on dates now, it was almost like I was just doing it for, for fun. And it was like, are you what I'm looking for? Are you good enough for me? Are you gonna add value to my life? That was never where I was at before that. I would show up on dates like, am am I good enough for you? Are they gonna like me? Am I wearing the right thing? Am I saying the right thing? Am I do the right things? And that, that's not a good place to be when you're trying to find your ideal partner. So when I started getting into the dating world after that divorce, all of that work that I was doing internally was showing up in, in, in mindset shifts. I was able to just have a completely different perspective. And I knew that I was never gonna settle because I knew what happened when I did, when I settled in relationships, the result I was getting was relationships and divorce. And I knew I didn't wanna do that again. So I knew I had to do that work to figure out who I was to, to like myself, to accept myself, to forgive myself for all the mistakes I made and all the bad choices that I made to try to find the silver linings in everything that I had gone through. And to figure out how those can benefit me moving forward to, to find the wisdom in all of the that I had experienced, so that I can empower myself moving forward. Doing all that work helped me get to know myself and love myself. And that in turn, had me showing up differently on, on dates, because if they weren't what I was looking for, it , it didn't matter. It didn't matter anymore. If didn't work out, I could show up on dates, and if they didn't like me or I got ghosted, or it didn't work out, it was like, whatever, like <laugh> , I'm , I'm fine . I don't need you. I don't need a relationship to be happy anymore. I could just make myself happy. And so, if I find somebody that adds value to my life and that I feel like makes a good partner for me, great bonus. But if I don't, I'm still okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, and, and maybe this plays into it because I think that sometimes people are, you know, and we maybe talked to a , haven't talked too much about this, but like, codependency or independence or dependent on somebody, like these are the , the variations Mm-Hmm . That you have when you're not autonomous. Right? When I'm not just making the best decisions for myself, I'm either codependent, I'm dependent, or I'm hyper independent, which are all kind of trauma responses in some capacity. How did that play? Because I , I love what you're saying. I think what happens with people is when they get divorced, it's such a difficult process. They're like, I'm never gonna do it again unless it's great, right? Yeah . And so they do kind of sit back and be like, Nope, I'm not just taking anything this time, <laugh> . Like, it's gotta be good.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You learn your lesson. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So talk a little bit about that, or like how you see it play into some of these relationships.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I mean, codependency was definitely something that I, that I was dealing with. And it goes back to that self-reflection piece, because if you don't understand your intention, if you don't understand why you're making the choices you're making, or why you want the things you think you want, then you're almost doing it blindly. So when you take a step back, and if you, if you think you have this goal, or you think you wanna date this person, take a step back and really ask yourself, why, what am I, what, what is my intention here? Do I feel like if I'm not in a relationship, I feel like I'm not good enough? Or do I have to prove to myself that I'm worthy by finding somebody who will love me and accept me? Am I relying on this person for happiness? Am I relying on this person to be taken care of financially, emotionally, physically, or otherwise? And I, I think that that's so important because when you know how to meet your own needs and, and identify your own needs, I guess first of all, first identify and then be able to meet your own needs. You are in such a powerful place because then you know that you're choosing partners not out of need or lack or like filling a void that you have within yourself. You're just choosing partners based on whether or not you honestly think that you make a good team or if they're adding value to your life. And that was something that I was never doing before. So I was choosing these partners to fill voids. I was choosing them because I wanted to feel a part of something or taken care of or lovable. And it's not gonna get you great results when you do that. So when you can, and it's scary. It is scary to, if you've never really been on your own, that's hard. It's hard to do that. And, but when you push yourself outside of, of that comfort zone, and you figure out how to support yourself financially and mentally and emotionally, and really just create a life that feels good and, and find fulfillment, and get hobbies and creative outlets, and just do things for yourself, that puts you in such a great place to find a relationship if you want one, because then you, you do know your standards. You do have your deal breakers , and you're not going to settle for someone because of fear.
Speaker 1:Well, and I, and I think that you're hitting on a couple areas that are pretty impactful, which is, you know, if you want a different result, you are going to have to shift the patterns that you have created about who you are, how you respond in a relationship, you know? And I think that you have given a ton of different perspectives of like how you shift your perspective for the relationship. But what were the internal patterns? Like what were the real, like things that you had to break? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , you know, because when it comes down to it, any relationship issue, friendship, family , uh, partner, it, it is probably unhealed trauma in your own life that you're, you're projecting on somebody else. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , right ? So , how do we change ourselves? And what are some of the things that, that you found helpful? Not just the modalities, but like you, you know, like what did you have to change about, about how you went about relat shipping ? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , um, to be healthier,
Speaker 2:I had to work on my own sec insecurities big time. I mean, I, I was struggling with deep abandonment issues from the loss of my parents and from being in an abusive relationship. And , and I didn't even know that that's what it was until I started self-reflecting, and I had to figure out how to start speaking to myself differently. I mean, that, it's so huge because if I look back to how I was talking to myself, it was awful. I, I was always comparing myself to others. I was always feeling insecure in different aspects of my life. Like I wasn't good enough or smart enough, or , um, feeling like unless somebody liked me, you know, in a relationship that, that there was something wrong with me. Those were really, like, the , the things that was going on in my brain was like, if some , if someone doesn't, doesn't like me, it means there's something wrong with me. So when I started doing that, that mindfulness and meditation and getting a better grip on what was actually going on in my brain, that's what helped me pay closer attention to the conversations I was having with myself. And once I started doing that, it changed how I felt about myself. Because anytime I would catch a thought like, you're not good enough, or you don't deserve it, or something wrong with you, I would intentionally start choosing different dialogue that made me feel differently about myself. So it was really just changing my inner dialogue, which helped me build my self-esteem, and also stepping outside of my comfort zone and challenging myself to do things that built my confidence. Like, one of the, one of the things that I did after my second, well, really, it was as, as my marriage was kind of on its way out, my second marriage , um, I decided I wanted to join a , a band. I was gonna join a classic rock cover band because I had loved to sing my whole life, but I was kind of like a closet closeted singer. Like, I didn't perform in front of anybody. I was too insecure, I was too embarrassed. But after that second divorce, when I, you know, I started kind of doing that inner work, I was like, it, new, new chapter, new me, right? I'm going for it. And so I was looking online and I found a local band that was looking for a lead vocalist, and I signed up for the audition. And then the whole way there, it was like, it was like a 45 minute drive. I was listening to this confidence hypnosis app to try to psych myself up, because this was so outside of my comfort zone. I listened to that the whole way I got there, I was shaking, I was sweating profusely. But I remember telling myself, even if this doesn't work out, I am so proud of myself just for showing up, because this is like way, way outside of anything I would normally do. So I'm just proud of myself that I'm doing something that I wouldn't normally do, and that I'm gonna be proud of myself no matter what happens. So I went to the audition, I gave it my all, and it wasn't great. I mean, looking back, I was too nervous. I had no breath control, but I actually got the part, I, I ended up getting the part. And then there , there I was, I was lead vocalist for a classic rock cover band. And it was awesome. I had so much fun. It was something that was just for me. I, I was passionate about it. I was excited, I was looking forward to it. And then it also opened up opportunities to meet like-minded people. I was, I was meeting more people that way. And even to this day, I'm still in a band. It's, it's a different band, but I still sing it in a plastic rock cover band. And it's something that I, I love so much. And I think that's something that's so important, is when you're in that phase of finding your new identity and coming, coming out of a divorce and figuring out who you are, you are going to have to do things that make you uncomfortable a lot. You , you are going to have to set boundaries that make you uncomfortable. You're going to have to maybe go out to eat by yourself and get comfortable. You're, you're gonna have to show up at holidays alone. You're gonna have to find new hobbies and creative outlets that are just for you, because that's gonna help you figure out who you are. Find fulfillment, build your self confidence . So when you do those things, when you take that action and do things that are outside of your comfort zone, that's honestly where the magic happens. And that, that's an example of what really helped me start just building my self-esteem and building my confidence was I did the thing that scared the out of me, and I survived. Right ? And so then it was like, oh, well, if I can do that, well, I could do this. And if I could do that, well, then I could do this.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it, it , it goes back to a little conversation that even we were having earlier, which is, you know, part of it is showing up , um, differently. You know? And when you go through a divorce and you start to shift friends, shift people that you hung out with, you know, because it maybe, it never any of it was really for you. Right? You, and what we were talking about earlier, internally is that you might have to show up in a different room. Like you might be continuing to show up in a room where they're like, Ew , you are horrible. Like, stop going into that room. Yeah . Going
Speaker 2:Into
Speaker 1:Places where people are like, you're amazing. Yeah , this
Speaker 2:Is
Speaker 1:Fabulous. You're a great singer. You're like, thank you. I'm, but it, it, part of it is this self-awareness, but part of it is also, I don't know if we ever really cultivated what we love as opposed to what can I love to make me likable, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And so when I started, and I know you talk a lot about frequency and, and vibration and, and kind of cultivating your self power , if you will, and discovering that and, and building it. When you go into that, you don't know what you like, right? Because you're like, well, I've just liked what other people around me did. Yeah . So it means experimenting, it means going into other places. So it's, it's, it's even bigger than that. It's being it, because there's one thing I'll ask you before we go into this, but do you know what vibration or what emotion or energy is higher than love from a frequency standpoint?
Speaker 2:Gratitude.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Authenticity.
Speaker 2:Oh, authenticity. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So the more you authentically show up, like who you are,
Speaker 2:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> ,
Speaker 1:The more you will vibrate higher and bring those people who like those things, right? Yeah . I love to , well, if you like musicals, but no one else did, no one's gonna go, well go with people that like musicals. Yeah . Go
Speaker 2:Find
Speaker 1:A group that helps you. So what other ways?
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 1:You know, being authentic can create a high , a different vibration. Being love, being gratitude, but also, what are some of the other ways that you think, you know, you can start to cultivate self-awareness. 'cause they don't have to be big, and you are in control of these things, but you have to do them regularly, right?
Speaker 2:Yes. Journaling is another really great tool. I don't know if it , if anyone listening has been in therapy, but your therapist has probably told you this too, <laugh> . I've been in therapy many times in my life, and they're always telling me to journal, because that , that does help cultivate self-awareness. A lot of times when you have that floating around in your head, it's harder to make sense of. Yeah . So when you sit down and really think about it and get it out and you see it on paper , um, you can kind of put those puzzle pieces together or find patterns or track your progress. And so that's a great way to cultivate self-awareness. But you're still right with that energy piece. Um, I mean , you are the guardian of your own energy. You have to pay attention to how you feel, let your, let your feelings kind of be your compass. And sometimes after a divorce, being your authentic self does mean letting go of relationships that maybe you've had a long time , um, but you just felt obligated to maintain them. Because while I've known them for so long, and so I guess this is just a relationship I need to stay in. But that is important when you're trying to figure out who you are and you're doing things that really are in alignment. Meaning it is something that you're, you're naturally drawn to. It's something that you have this organic kind of , you, you wanna go, you wanna explore something, you wanna , you're interested in something because everyone's different. Everyone has different interests. Maybe I, I love to sing, but somebody else really wants to learn how to horseback ride. Or there's somebody who really loves to knit or do photography or origami or whatever. There , if you have that inclination, if you have that desire or interest in something that's in you for a reason. And so when you follow those things, it's opening up new doors for you. And then you are being more authentically yourself. You're finding things that are in alignment, and you're, you are opening up that opportunity to meet like-minded people. And so it's, again, it's yourself taking that uncomfortable action trying to find yourself. And then that's how you can find cult . You can cultivate new relationships. And so part of that being uncomfortable sometimes is letting go of relationships that aren't serving you anymore. And one of the things that I tell my clients is when, when they're, they're talking about relationships that they're struggling with, is you have to ask yourself , this is a really simple way to do this, is ask yourself, are they an anchor or a balloon? Are they raising me? Are they lifting me up? Are they helping me rise? Are they helping me grow? Are they empowering me? Are they supporting me? Are they accepting of who I am? Or are they holding me down? Are they keeping me back? Are they dragging down my energy? Are they, you know , energy vampires? Really be mindful of what kind of relationship you have with people, and then make the choice to protect your own energy and not have relationships with people who are more anchors than balloons.
Speaker 1:Well, and I, and I think that in general, as you see divorce as a change, and a lot of people don't like the change, you can rewrite the narrative. You can say, I'm in a better place now than I ever was, and it , it could be different and not great, but it's in a better, you know, it's gonna be better. Um, but then also to be mindful about what you consume in it , what you listen to, what you watch, what you eat, you know, all of that plays into either escalating the emotions or deescalating the emotions. Yes .
Speaker 2:Especially scrolling on social media. Oh yeah . Because that slippery slope, everyone has their perfect , you know, <laugh> their perfect lives all over the little snippets on the internet . But just remember that a lot of that's not real. And so if you find , again, tune into your energy. So if you find when you get off social media, you feel worse, you feel like. 'cause you're just comparing yourself to people , um, then that's something that you need to do less of. Or unfollow the people that make you feel like that and follow people who empower you and motivate you and inspire you. Um , and just remember that you never know what's going on behind closed doors. You'd be really surprised how many people I work with whose closest friends and family had no idea that they were on the precipice of divorce. They all thought that they were great, and everything was fine and dandy. Oh , you just got , you guys just got back from that vacation . I just saw all those pictures and what happened. Right? So maybe what we see on social looks like everyone is puppies and rainbows, but you really don't know what's going on. So be really careful also about who you're comparing yourself to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I, I think that people, you know, like I , um, there's an artist that I've been listening to since you brought up music. You maybe like music a little bit, but there is an artist called Saint Finnan .
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And he creates, like music that has like affirmations, but it's really good music. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 1:Then the underlying things that are being said are just things that would maybe help change your thoughts if you're, because then you start singing the words. But it's really like these powerful affirmations. And I think that people don't understand that energy travels when you push, when you put something into it. Right. So if you put it into writing and you write it down, if you talk to somebody, oh, I have a great idea. You know, oh, I wanna do better. I wanna be healthier. We'll talk about being healthier. And then people will, oh, I wanna be healthier too. Let's go walk, let's go . You know, like, you'll start to find it. But what I find in divorce is that people, as they go through it, they're like, this is horrible and awful, and I'm gonna help people when I get out of here. So maybe that's a good entree to, like, how did you kind of go through this process? Like, were you always a divorce coach? Were you always, you know, helping people?
Speaker 2:No . Yeah. <laugh> , I always knew I wanted to help people after I had gone through all of the trauma I did in my life. I knew that I, I, I mean, I was doing that anyway with coworkers and with friends. It just always made me feel good to try to help other people see things in a different perspective or give them some kind of tool. And so after my second divorce, I had to get a job that I hated because I needed something that paid the bills. So I was working full-time. Um, lockdown happened. So I was homeschooling my kid. I was working full-time. I was doing all the cooking, all the cleaning, taking care of the cats, doing, doing all of the things. And I was in this job that I really didn't, I wasn't passionate about. And it didn't feel like it was in alignment. And so that's when I kind of came into life coaching is, is really what my first step was. When I, the more I learned about it, the more I was just like, oh my God, I was born to do this. I literally, my life unfolded in order for me to start doing this with people. And when you start a a a coaching business, you have to decide who you wanna help, because I couldn't just show up and go life coach. I can help everybody do everything, you know? So I had to think about, well, what do I know a lot about? What have I experienced a lot in my life? What , what do I know that I could share with people that can help them and change their lives and give them tools and give them new perspectives? And it was, it was divorce. It was because I had gone through it twice. And I, I know what it's like, I know , uh, what it's like to be a mom to go through it. I know that internal struggle. I, I know the fears and the insecurities and, and I had a lot of resources at that point too. And so that's when I decided that that's who I wanted to help. Um, and it's, it's completely changed my life. And that's really what I did, is I , I took everything I had gone through and I made it into something good. And I love stories like that. Like a lot of the people that inspire me, who I see, the , that is what they did. Whether you're talking about the big , where Oprah, Tony Robbins, you know, Mel Robbins , I mean, any of those people, if you ask 'em to tell you your story, it's similar. They had gone through some that they could have either decided they were a victim of, or they decided to take control of their own lives and they made changes. And then they took what they learned and what they know. And now they give that to other people to empower others. And so, no matter what you're going through, you do have the power to do that. You know , for those of you listening, whatever it is, you can find silver linings. You can find the wisdom in it. You can, you can figure out how this is actually beneficial to you. And I know that sometimes that's really hard. And when you're in the middle of the storm , it seems impossible. But challenge yourself to do that, to find any silver linings. And you can use that to propel you into your next chapter. And you can use it to help other people. And , and when you do that, I feel like that is just, it's like epic. You know, when you, when you can take your pain and transform it into a way to help others. I, I don't know what is more gratifying than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I, I, I say it is , um, everything that happens, I say, what is the blessing?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, I stubbed my toe. What , what is the blessing? <laugh> ? Oh, I, I had dropped my earring and now I picked it up and I didn't lose that diamond. You know? Or Yes. Oh, I'm stuck in traffic. Well, what is the blessing? Well, yes , maybe I avoided something. So when you can start to look , and I think that's getting, that's pretty heavy into healing and self-awareness. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> if literally on a daily basis, the things that are considered to be negative.
Speaker 2:Yes . You're
Speaker 1:Literally like, well, what's the blessing? Yes .
Speaker 2:I just
Speaker 1:Filled my entire food on the ground.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What's
Speaker 1:The blessing that
Speaker 2:Reminds me? So there's this book that I read, it's called A Happy Pocket Full of Money. It's a wonderful book.
Speaker 1:Okay .
Speaker 2:And it reminds me of this little excerpt in there where he's talking about, you have to be careful of what you're labeling, good and bad. 'cause there's this story of this farmer whose horse ran away, and the neighbor comes over and says, oh , I'm so sorry. Your horse ran away. That's bad news. And the farmer said, well, who's to say what's good or bad? So then a couple of days later, his horse came back and the horse brought all of his friends. So then he had like 20 horses. And so then the neighbor came over and said, oh, congratulations for your good fortune. And the farmer said, well, who's to say what's good or bad? Then the farmer's son tries to ride one of the wild horses and falls off and breaks his leg. So then the neighbor says, I'm so sorry for what happened to your son's leg. And he says, well, who's to say what's good or bad? A couple of days later , um, the military comes to recruit his son to go off to war, but he didn't go because he had a broken leg. And so that's just an example of how maybe you think something's bad, but in the bigger scheme of things, the universe has got some plans. And so you have to have that trust that even though it seems bad or uncomfortable, who's to say it's not actually leading you in the direction of where you really wanna go? Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative> . And that what you just said was key. You have to have the trust. Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2:<affirmative> . And
Speaker 1:If your trust has been broken by all of the relationships that you have ever been in either family by leaving, or friends or loved one, you know, like a re uh , serious relationship, you are still in control of trusting yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that that is what it , it is the harder thing it is. And then to trust yourself enough to say, you know what, that's what is best for me. That's what I deserve, and I am going to create that or attract it. And that's really what kind of, and you are trying to do with your company. Um, mindfully ready. And let me just say one thing before we, everybody wants to come and divorce, and they're like, well, I'm hiring attorneys and I'm hiring experts and you know, I always get involved and everybody gets involved. And then I , I bring in like therapists, accountants, yeah . And all of these people, and they're like, why do I need all of these people? And I was like, because everybody has a role in this process, and if you allow everybody to stay in their role, your lawyer fights your fight, your expert fights the money, your psychologist or your therapist kind of helps you emotionally. But the coach, although everybody wants to think, think it's like this fluffy thing. There is so much that goes on in the divorce that you could be paying out the wazoo to ask the wrong person. It's the right question. It's just the wrong person. Whereas when you're a coach and you understand the process, you are kind of the sand beneath between the pebbles. Right. You're like catching all of those questions that really don't have a good legal or financial or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But they're like the important people question like, about their lives. So
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 1:Tell us how you kind of operate, how you support people and, and what they would look to you for in this process.
Speaker 2:Yeah . So I , I help with the mental and emotional side of things. There's like a business bucket with divorce and then there's the mental and emotional, everything that comes up. Guilt, shame, feelings of failure, low self-esteem, anger, resentment. How are you, what are you doing about that stuff? How are you getting yourself to feel better? How are you navigating now co-parenting with somebody that you can't stand to be around? How do you get yourself to a place where you feel confident and you feel good about who you are? So these are the things that, that I help people dive into so that they can be really their best selves. And I know that sounds cliche, but you have to think about it. I , if you're struggling and if you know that you are not in a good place, your kids are getting that version of you. Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 1:That ,
Speaker 2:So the more work and self-care you put into yourself, then your kids are getting the best of you, not what's left of you.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 2:And so I help, there's all kinds of things. I mean, I, there's digital resources. I, I have an online course that's amazing. That's specifically to help you build your self-esteem and, and know your worth. Again, there's group coaching, private coaching, there's a monthly membership where you can get training every single week on different topics like co-parenting, setting boundaries, parental alienation, negative self-talk. Um, but just get the support you need. What whatever you're going through, everyone has blind spots, everyone. Because when you're in it, it's really hard to see things objectively. And so when you can get the support, even if it's joining a free support group, sometimes just gaining that fresh perspective completely changes the way you feel and the choices that you make, which then gives you different results.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Well, and, and I think that in the divorce process, you have to start to be your own advocate. And if you, I'm just telling you like I am heavy into litigation and the litigation we do, like when we go to trial, it's 3, 4, 5, 7 day trials. Right. It's very complex stuff. But during this process, all of the clients always have issues and they'll be like, oh , attorney, oh, expert. I feel I'm just very frustrated right now. And do you know what everybody's gonna say? We do not care. Right . We do care, but you're not paying us to care about that. And they will say that to you. They're like, do you wanna pay 350, $500 an hour to ask me not legal questions or not financial questions? Yeah. And, and you know, and they will say, go talk to your therapist about this. Go. And what I will say also is great if your therapist understands divorce, absolutely great. But for divorce, don't hire an accountant. Don't hire anybody who doesn't understand that space because it is the twilight zone and it's got its own rules.
Speaker 2:Yes. And
Speaker 1:If you don't play by the rules, you are gonna get caught. And if you think anybody's going to emotionally hold you through that process, that is incorrect. So in my mind, even if you are hiring a coach and you are paying them, that is for the advice for that specific thing. Like it comes in and kind of helps that piece, or that's your frame of reference to help understand what the other people are doing. Right. Sometimes it's like, I don't know what they're all doing. And somebody else would be like, oh, well, oh , that's just a simple hearing. No big deal. Don't worry about it. But they don't know. So it ramps up anxiety, it ramps up depression, it ramps up all of these things. So not only working on yourself, but also hiring the right team.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because for the most part, unless you have exponential wealth, a divorce is going from a two member household to a one member household in all capacities. It typically is going to be different in a traditionally not blessed way. So you have to say, well maybe I don't wanna live like that anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe
Speaker 1:I want to let go of some of those things. And I think that letting go of some , like maybe I wanna have , I , I tell people, oh, you have to leave the marital home. Don't you wanna redecorate? Yes .
Speaker 2:Don't
Speaker 1:You want it to be like you now, not
Speaker 2:You
Speaker 1:From whenever ago. Right .
Speaker 2:Yeah . Living in all those old
Speaker 1:Memories . So what is the be best platform for them to kind of find you on? We've been scrolling through some of your, or should they just reach out to you directly? Like how does that work?
Speaker 2:The , my link tree is probably the easiest because that gives you access to everything. If you wanna browse the website, brows , any of the services, follow me on social. Everything is on there.
Speaker 1:Is there is a good, you know, like sometimes people I think don't always know how to go about just hiring one, you know, like your , you as a coach. Is it a good way to start just like with a group setting or
Speaker 2:Something?
Speaker 1:Is that an easier way maybe if you are
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or just hop on a clarity session with me where , where we can just chat one-on-one on Zoom and talk about what's going on. See, see if, if this is something that could help you. Um , because I, I certainly want you to get the right support. It's not gonna do either of us any favor , favors, if, if what you're looking for is not what I can provide. Um, but I also have a free private support group that you can join and that can sometimes give you that insight as to what you need or, or what you're doing. Um, just talking to people who have been through it and who know, I think that's so important. Divorce can feel so isolating. Um, and you know, your friends and your family, they might have advice, but it might not be the most productive a advice or the , the , the best advice, even though they might have their heart's in the right place. But , um, unless you've been through it, it's so hard to understand. And sometimes even if you've been through it, you could just be doing something that's so different. Every marriage is different, every divorce is different. So I think it's just getting support if you feel stuck or unsure of what steps to move forward. Or you feel like you're just caught up in your emotions and you don't know how to process it. Just getting support so that you don't stay stuck. Because if you don't, I mean that's something that could last decades and that was something for me. I mean, I didn't do anything I was supposed to do after my first divorce and that's how I wound up with the second one . So you wanna make sure that you're doing the right thing so that you can empower yourself and enjoy the rest of your life. I mean, divorce, yes, it's an ending of sorts, but it really is also a beginning and it's, it's a chance to have a fresh start so that you can create the life that you really want. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative> . And you gotta find someplace that resonates with you. So if the person, you know, typically this is gonna be a person that you're gonna talk to for a little bit of time, but obviously, you know, working with you, you can do one call, you can do like test the waters, things like that. Yeah . Because it's sort of like at the beginning sometimes there's not a lot going on, right. You're just more anxious about it. And then as things ramp up, that's not really the time that you wanna go and find and be like interviewing somebody who you wanna hire. You kind of wanna get that process going. So it , it's nice to know that they can have a process to reach out to you Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and kind of figure out where to go from there or take baby steps because , um, I think that people don't understand the importance of the coach until it's like, I need them tomorrow. And that's not necessarily easy in this day and time. So I think do your research, you know, reach out even if it's not you or me, you know, to reach out to somebody in your area that's gonna give you some assistance. Yeah. So, but thank you Leah . This is amazing and I thank you
Speaker 2:For having me.
Speaker 1:I think we should come back and talk about a little bit more of some of the, the traumas that we have to, because people don't wanna talk about these, but I think one thing that you and I might know is like once you heal from some of them, you can kind of talk to them about them a little bit easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, so, you know, 'cause we have a lot of , all of us, especially women, have a lot of consistencies that, you know, we can start to, to heal from. So I appreciate your contribution , uh, to the world and uh, we'll hope to see you again. Thank
Speaker 2:You. Thank you .