Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Divorce Mediation: Parenting Plans and Child Custody
Hi, welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm valuation expert and mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. I actually specialize in divorce and partner disputes, but today we'll discuss divorce, mediation and parenting plans or child custody with Michelle Weinberg.
Michelle's a licensed marriage and family therapist with over 20 years of experience, but now focuses her practice specifically and solely on divorce mediation in New Jersey. In 2011, she co-founded Westfield Mediation with an attorney Randi Albert, and she's also a member of the New Jersey Association of Professional Mediators and volunteers at several organizations in her spare time.
1. What is a parenting plan?
2. How is a parenting plan used in divorce?
3. What is the difference between legal custody and physical custody in a divorce?
4. What is 50/50 custody, shared custody, and joint custody - what is the difference between them?
5. What are the logistics to a parenting plan?
6. How to deal with power dynamics and cooperation when creating a parenting plan.
7. What are the top 3 polarizing issues you see debated in the parenting plan process?
8. What is nesting?
9. What is a MOU or memorandum of understanding?
10. About Michelle Weinberg
Melissa Gragg
CVA, MAFF, CDFA
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC
melissa@bridgevaluation.com
http://www.BridgeValuation.com
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com
https://www.valuationmediation.com
Cell: (314) 541-8163
Michelle Weinberg
Westfield Mediation, LLC
1812 Front Street
Scotch Plains, NJ 07076
Phone: 908.913.0373
Text: 908.913.0648
Fax: 908.789.8738
info@westfieldnjmediation.com
Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gregg, and I'm evaluation expert and mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. I actually specialize in divorce and partner disputes, but today we'll discuss divorce, mediation and parenting plans or child custody with Michelle Weinberg. Michelle's a licensed marriage and family therapist with over 20 years of experience, but now focuses her practice specifically and solely on divorce mediation in New Jersey. In 2011, she co-founded Westfield Mediation with an attorney Randy Albert, and she's also a member of the New Jersey Association of Professional Mediators and volunteers at several organizations In her spare time, we are so grateful and happy to have you, Michelle. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm good, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yes. So this is, um, a topic that everybody kind of gets into having to do with a divorce if you have children, obviously. Um, and so sometimes people think when they go through divorce, whether in mediation or otherwise, that they just kind of talk about in general, like, Hey, maybe I'll keep the kids, maybe we'll transfer them on a Thursday, maybe we'll do this. But they don't always understand that there is a more formal process of how you agree to those terms. And we talk about these things are in a parenting plan. Um, and so Michelle, kind of tell us about what, what do you see as a parenting plan and why, you know, um, why somebody would want one of these in a divorce?
Speaker 2:Sure. So a parenting plan can be pretty comprehensive if you want it to be. It can be more limited if you want it to be. So it can, uh, it can have a variety of definitions. In our mediation practice, we say that a parenting plan is pretty all encompassing and we ask a lot of questions to try to help you to get there. So it would be a very specific mapping out of where are the kids gonna be, on which days, where are they gonna be on holidays, special occasions. How about vacations? Who gets first pick for summer vacation? If you both wanna go away that same last week before school starts, how do you figure that out? Um, we try to, uh, get ahead of all the roadblocks that can come in your future. We talk about, uh, religious upbringing, we talk about extracurricular activities, we talk about who's paying for what things. Um, we talk about college, even if you have young children, cuz it hopefully is, um, you know, some type of post-secondary education might be in your children's future. So we, we ask a lot of questions and then you can pick and choose how specific you wanna be about each question or if you want to include that question maybe, um, you know, maybe religious upbringing is not an issue and you don't want it in your parenting plan, so that's okay. So a parenting plan can be very, very broad and get very specific or it could just stay broad and not very specific. It's up to you. Um, because that's how mediation works. You have a lot of flexibility in this process.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And in the, in the flexibility of the process because when we're talking about getting divorce, for the most part, at some point you're still gonna have to go to court to at least enter what you've decided in the mediation, right? Yeah. And so when you go to court and you enter what you've decided, you've all agreed, we come up with this parenting plan and it is an opportunity for people. Like I try to tell people, map out and discuss as many issues as you even think is going to come up in this process. Or else you're going to e especially if you have a hard time communicating right. You know, bring up these issues. You might as well talk about them when you have this person in the room kind of helping you talk about'em. But how do we use the parenting plan in the divorce? Do we even have to, right, do we even have to do a parenting plan or, or what do you see in, around there in, in New Jersey?
Speaker 2:So we encourage people to have at least a basic plan. So even if, and, and we tell them ahead of time, okay, this is sort of the fallback plan. So if your plan is to have, you know, the kids Monday, Tuesday, your, your spouse has them Wednesday, Thursday, and then you alternate weekends, that's great. Put that on paper. And then because of your work schedule, oh my goodness, I need to flip and have them Wednesday, Thursday instead of Monday, Tuesday, this one week. Then you do that. You don't have to go back to court to say, oh my goodness, I need to change my parenting plan this week. As, as I tell my clients, there's no parenting police following you around to say, oh my goodness, it's Wednesday and your kids are here and they're supposed to be there. As long as you're in agreement, you have the ability to make those changes on a case by case basis as life comes up. Because whatever you have written on paper is wonderful, but it's never gonna work a hundred percent of the time cuz that's not how life works. Um, but if you go into the process knowing that and, and are aware of being, um, that flexible, then you can, you can make it work on a case by case basis, but if you have nothing in place and you have nothing to fall back on, then that's an issue. The, the, the benefit of having a parenting plan, at least a basic one, uh, at minimum, is that when you are in disagreement, so you both want the kids on a Monday, whoever is written to have them on Monday, we'll have them on Monday. That's your fallback plan. You don't have to go to court to argue about it that cuz the court's gonna tell you to follow your parenting plan. So if you have a parenting plan as an, a minimum, is your backup to, uh, an argument that, that you can avoid.
Speaker 1:Well, and a lot of times people are coming into a divorce, right? Because there are communication issues, there are difference of opinions of maybe even how to raise the kids, right? Um, we start to get into different school situations like private school, public school, who's gonna pay, who's gonna pick sports, who's gonna pay, who's gonna pick? And part of it is, at the very beginning though, when people start to understand how this is gonna work, they, they have some confusion in the custody, you know, so a lot of people are like, I want full custody. I want, you know, like I, I have to have control like their, their whatever their issue is that they have about the other spouse, right? Is, is usually could be real or not perceived, but whatever it is, they're just like, I have to have the kids, I have to have full custody, I want full custody. And they don't understand that there, you know, there's a difference between legal custody and physical custody and how that looks. So maybe we need to dial it back and say, okay, what, what does that even mean? What is, is there a difference between legal and physical custody and what does that mean when you're getting
Speaker 2:Divorced? Yeah. So we do explain that pretty clearly. Um, in New Jersey, there's legal custody and there's physical custody. Legal custody is who's making the decisions of, for your children about some of the issues you just, uh, said school, religious upbringing, extracurricular activities, um, you know, childcare, healthcare issues, uh, should they get their tonsils out? Should they see another doctor as for a second opinion, a third doctor? You know, that those kind of things, um, those have to be made jointly. Uh, almost pretty often in New Jersey, it's, it's assumed that there's going to be joint legal custody, uh, unless there's some very good reasons not to, but most of the time parents should anticipate that they're gonna have to make those decisions jointly regardless of, of the animosity or lack of animosity between them. Um, and then there's physical custody. So physical custody is where are they spending their time? It doesn't necessarily mean how much time they're spending at each place, just where are they spending their time. And most of the time that's joint also because they'll be spending at least some of their time at one parent's house and some of their time at the other parent's house.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And part of that leads us into kind of what I think is sometimes the default. And again, we have to be very clear even, you know, like even if you and I as mediators can mediate anywhere in the country, right? Because we can, um, for the most part, people really get to know their state because every state has certain rules, but a lot of times the default is 50 50 custody or shared custody or joint custody. And there could be different terms that are used, but is there a difference or what is the difference? Or do you just have to figure out, like make sure, you know, if these terms are used differently in your state as well?
Speaker 2:Right. So in mediation we sort of don't rely on terms, we just look at the facts and say, okay, let, you can call it whatever you want, but where are your kids gonna be spending your time and what quality time are they spending with you? So if they have one extra day with a parent, ev one parent every week, and it's not exactly 50 50 custody, it's still shared parenting and you're still getting very good quality time with the children. So that's what really matters. Um, and we try and steer away from, you know, counting out the minutes and the hours of, of what you're doing with your kids and sp and stick to the concepts of, you know, what's in the best interest of the child, what's realistic, what's your commute like? Uh, you know, we're a suburb of New York, so it could be very long some days<laugh> when, uh, you know, mass transit or there's an accident on the turnpike or whatever it could be. So, uh, we try to look at quality of time, not just minutes of time as well, and we try to steer away of the mindset of it has to be 50 50, it has to be shared, it has to be great joint, whatever the concepts are. And, and just try to get to the reality of what makes sense for your situation. Um, so they should still speak to an attorney to know what their rights are, right? Because we always want them to be aware of it. But in mediation, again, we try to help them come up with a realistic plan for their situation, which isn't what their neighbor had or their cousin who got divorced or, you know, what somebody else had. So we have to be specific for, for what their needs are, and we can, we can do that in mediation.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think in, in mediation, especially for a parenting plan, okay, so a parenting plan, you're coming in and you're saying, okay, here's the specifics of our family. Here's the dynamics of our children, here's the things that we have to do here are, or the the ways that we work from home or don't all of these specifics, but when it comes right down to it, there's not gonna be like a template for the plan, right? We're not gonna be like, oh, given all these parameters you should exchange at Thursday at 3:00 PM and the p the one parent should drop off. So you're coming together and really just having a discussion for, for a decade or two decades into the future, what are the decisions we're going to make and how are we going to make them now with, with some idea of what it looks like now? And so in some capacities, could you get your attorneys in the room and could everybody get in the room? Sure. But really a mediator is just introducing things like, okay, are you guys gonna go to private school? Well, no, we like our, okay, well what if somebody moves houses? You know, like we're just creating scenarios where then they can talk like, okay, if this happens, what, what's gonna be the result? And then you put it together in a document, you know, like, and I think think that even holidays, right? Like you can talk, like, talk a little bit about the logistics in the plan of like drop off pickup whose responsibility, because it gets granular if you want it, and if you have issues, you might want it granular.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes. So we from the start say that the, the parenting plan that works for you now with your four year old is not gonna work for your 14 year old mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you just have to realize that and your job may change and their needs are gonna change. So go in this, go into this with open eyes, but let's look at what's gonna work for now. And then if you need to, okay, maybe you do need to know that the transition is gonna be at school or daycare or childcare or with the nanny or you know, however, because you would like to limit the amount of interaction that the parent, the co-parents have with one another. Um, and so a lot of times parents choose to do it that way. They, they are not directly interacting with each other often mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and the transition will occur through a third party, either school or aftercare or, you know, whatever it may be. So I'll drop the child off at school, you'll pick them up at aftercare, you know, and, and so it's not necessarily a time, it's sort of like, uh, a place, you know, where, where that transition can happen. And then you have to come up with a summer plan too, if their summer plans are different, um, you know, than their, than their school year plans. And so you have to think about that as well. Um, and with the holidays we do try to map it out as, as much, uh, as we can. A lot of times people who are get, who are getting divorced and through mediation are, are getting along in some capacity and say, oh, well we'll just work that out. And so it's my job to bring up the sticky issue of saying, I understand where you're coming from and that may work for a little while. I'm envisioning five years from now, you each have new partners and they have children and they have their family tradition. And you wanna make sure that you can coordinate your, your family into other family traditions as well. And if, you know when you, when your children are gonna be with you, it's easier to do that. And so, you know, I'll never get married again is what I hear a lot, a lot of times. And, you know, that doesn't always hold water. Oftentimes people do get remarried or have new partners. Um, so I try to anticipate as much as possible their future. Uh, and sometimes they believe me and sometimes they don't. So it's up to them how they wanna proceed. So we try to get them as specific as possible with also built in flexibility knowing that things will change down the road.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think in divorces we also see a power dynamic issue. So one spouse may have more control over the money, the finances or one spouse may have more control over the children's activities and things like that. And in that power dynamic, we've sort of just gone along, you know, so both parties have just like, well, this is how we've done it in the past, like, we're just gonna go along and we'll figure it out. But if you know that there's power dynamics in your situation and you know that in the past you have not been able to enunciate what you want, it is a good time to use that opportunity and say to the mediator, like, what else should I consider? Mm-hmm.<affirmative> like, okay, well what happens if one of you guys get a work out of town? Like, what happens? You know? And, and even coming up with a list of their priorities, like, is Christmas always gonna be a priority to you? And you'd give up Thanksgiving and the other person would take the Thanksgiving every time. You know, like those types of things. I think this process helps people come off of their, I have to have Christmas every year, right? Because they start to see is that gonna be realistic forever,
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:Like, or is there some give and take? Right?
Speaker 2:And al and also, um, cooperation builds upon cooperation. So once they've started to agree about some other things and they, they realize that they're, they they can work together, um, they might be willing to get off their, you know, position that they're so stuck on with some flexibility because they realize, okay, maybe I can't have them every c maybe the kids won't be with me every Christmas, but I know that if a special Christmas comes up because we've worked well together, maybe that my co-parent will allow me to have them for that special Christmas, even if it's not my Christmas. Because they've had this goodwill sort of built up through cooperation.
Speaker 1:But it's also stating the things that are important to you and coming up with that list of things that are really, that maybe you haven't said in the past, but because the reality is, and this is what I tell people, you're gonna have the conversation. You're gonna have the conversation of whether we continue with hockey or if who's gonna pay for the travel team, right? Yeah. Yes.<laugh>. So if you're gonna have these conversations, why wouldn't you do it right now? Like let, let's just, because sometimes you might identify issues that you didn't, oh, I didn't know you were so concerned about hockey. I thought, I thought everybody was on board because we've all been like placating this already tenuous situation. And so it's, it is an opportunity for people to finally be like, you know what,<laugh>, the kid never liked it. I never liked it. You know what I'm saying? Like sometimes the truth starts to come out. So you're creating a plan that's really based on the reality. But we do usually have some top issues that people will, are always going to have and debate. And so what are the top three kind of polarizing issues that you see that are debated in the parenting plan process? Um, and then I'll give you some, it it, let's see which ones you are. Cuz I'm sure there are so many
Speaker 2:<laugh>. So I would say the top three tend to be holidays. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, you know, like you mentioned Christmas before, it can be, you know, very emotional and to, to, especially if your children, children are on the younger side, how can they not, how can I not see them on Christmas morning? Waking up and yeah. Going to the tree, that kind of thing. It's emotional. Um, the other thing is, um, what happens when parents have new partners mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, so again, I, I'm sort of the stick in the mud that brings it up because who knows when it's gonna happen. It may have already happened. And how my main concern, uh, in bringing it up is not, I don't care what to do with your new partner, but how, how are the kids going to be introduced to the new partner? How are you gonna tell each other that there's a new partner? How long do you wanna wait until you allow the kids to meet somebody? Um, because the goal is not to have people in and out of the kid's life. And then the third is, you mentioned it before as well, um, if a parent has to move, not necessarily out of state cuz that's sort of its own set of, of issues, but mm-hmm.<affirmative> within the state, how far is too far to be going back and forth on a regular basis. I don't wanna drive to South Jersey from North Jersey. You know, it's a, um, takes a lot of time. It's expensive that there's traffic, it's annoying. Um, so how, where, what's that cutoff point where it becomes your responsibility cuz you're the one that moved to make the kids go back and forth. So those are the top three. And I would say, um, not everybody has all those issues. Some people zip right through them and it's not an issue, but those tend to be the more common ones that, that are a little sticky.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think the, the moving one, um, for sure there could be state specific restrictions or that you have to communicate or ask permission type of things. Um, I really like the one that you brought up though about how to talk about another person, you know, another, um, relationship. And because you, you kind of have to know that in most divorces, um, there's a great likelihood that there was a relationship in the divorce Right. That created why they're getting divorced. And so it could be a hot button, um, like, well you already had somebody come into this relationship and you didn't do it like this. But again, I don't think we should look at mediation as like, okay, everybody talked nice about things. That's not really, really it is. It's like, hey, how I would appreciate right if when that happens, you give me a heads up first. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and then we talk about how that's gonna look as opposed to going to the holiday dinner and now my kids come home and tell me that they met Susie and they think that dad's girlfriend is so delightful. Right. So you can, it's, it's sort of like the mediator's bringing up these issues and then you guys are like, okay, how are you gonna deal with, you know, like you get to state what you would like so that somebody doesn't mess up in the future. You know, like after you get divorced you really don't want each other to mess up as parents in the future. Right. Right. You want the plan to help you. And, and that's where I think that that people are trying to get to now an interesting idea that people may not know about because a lot of stuff that we've talked about, they're like, okay, makes sense. But there is a concept called nesting.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So talk to us a little bit about this because this leads us to some of the creativity in mediation. This might not be a thing that you know about, but a mediator could talk to you about, you know, unique ways of looking at, uh, the same issue.
Speaker 2:Sure. So nesting is a parenting plan where the children remain in the marital home and the parents either get one apartment or two apartments or other places to live, um, on their non, where they go on their non parenting time. Typically nesting involves a second apartment, let's say. And both parents go to that second apartment during their non parenting time. So let's say you do a week on a week off of parenting, so on your non week of parenting you're living in the apartment and then your co-parent lives at lives in the apartment on the following week when you go back to the house. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So there's always one parent in the marital home and one parent in the second apartment. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and it's usually, you know, a small place cuz it's the kids don't go to that apartment, the kids are always in the marital home and the parents rotate in and out of that second apartment to the marital home.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And what it does is shift a little bit of the, you know, cuz and a lot of divorces we're like, okay, kids pack up every four days, every three days and shift to another household. Um, this is where the kids stay in the household and the parents actually shift. Yes. And I've seen this work very successfully. It's usually a short-term Yes. Situation. Um, you know, sometimes getting divorced is a process six months to a year to longer if you go litigation. Um, but it is a good option. Another thing, um, you know, additional tips maybe for parents is that if you have teenagers, especially teenage girls, you need to have, or even like kids in general, like they have their favorite hoodie, they have their favorite shoes, they have their favorite whatever. And I know this sounds crazy, but I've encouraged some parents to get two of things.<laugh>, if it's really important, you know, if it's a curing iron that they love, get to just have one at each place because we're forcing them to pack up everything that they love and then miss it if they forget. And what do kids do? Forget<laugh> every time, you know, what are some other tips or ideas that you have for parents to, or, or concepts for them to think about when they're coming up with a parenting plan maybe that they wouldn't think about normally?
Speaker 2:So a lot of times the parenting plan also goes hand in hand with your financial situation. So are you keeping the marital home? Are you both getting new residences? Um, you know, can you afford a second apartment to do the nesting if you so choose? So it's not only parenting plan in in isolation, you do have to consider the financial piece of it as well. Um, a lot of times people wanna keep the marital home for the kids and maybe have, you know, a second home that the kids do sort of, um, have two homes now, but it's not very realistic to afford the parent the, the marital home. So they have to think about that even with best intentions. And both parents agree that they want the kids to stay in the marital home. It might not be an option. So they do have to, um, come up with some ideas but also look realistically what, what can they afford to implement mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So sometimes people have to move back home with grandparents or sisters, brothers, cousins, you know, whatever it may be. Um, so you have to think of that as an option, um, getting, uh, a roommate to come in if you do wanna live in the marital home, but you might need that extra financial support. There's lots of issues, um, that you, you have to see what works for your situation. Sometimes parents move, keep the marital home, but they may, the second parent moves to a town that maybe is a few towns away that's a little less expensive, but the kids can still stay in their marital home and go to that school. So living in the other, um, town doesn't affect them that much, but it's more affordable for the, for the parents to do that. The, the co-parents. So it's really, uh, hand in hand the options, the marital, the the parenting plan options and the financial options.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that that's when we've seen nesting really be, really work when you either have a school district you have to stay into or you know, the schools. Cuz sometimes it is like, what are the kids accustomed to? If one parent is gonna have the fancy house with the pool and the the trampoline and then the other parent is an apartment and you know, I don't even get my own bedroom. You know, that dichotomy is what we're trying to prevent in some capacity or the perception of it, but it doesn't mean that it's always possible, you know? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it really means like your situation we're trying to come up with like what's the best for everybody in the situation or what's the the the best alternative, right? Because if you keep one house in the district, what happens if you can't afford that house in the future, you're still gonna have, you know, like even if anything coming up with a way to talk about these things in the future. I've seen couples go back to their mediator Yes. In the future, you know, so five years down the line you go and say, oh man, now we can't figure out this. Odds are you can go back to that same mediator and say, we just wanna work with you for a few hours and like come up with a new plan, adjust it, agree to it, something like that. Um, and that's usually a good place because those people again are just trying to help you facilitate the conversation. Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's often included, it's pretty common now to include that clause in a divorce agreement that you'll try mediation before, immediately going back to court about an issue. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So now we often do see not necessarily people that we've helped divorce, but other, you know, maybe they litigated, but in their divorce agreement it says that they have to come to mediation first. So they come to us to try to resolve any post divorce issues that may pop up.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Well, and one other thing, um, is, and we haven't said it yet in this conversation, and I'm just gonna throw it in there as a question real quick, but like at the end of this, you know, you, you might have a parenting plan and, and you might have, like if you go through mediation, you have a lot of other issues. You come at the end and you might have an M O U or, or people talk about like they have different acronyms, but what at the end of mediation, let's say somebody comes to you and they're going to work through their financials or they're gonna work through the parenting plan, then okay, now we've kind of, I think we agree like then what<laugh> like what, what does somebody do at that point? Like a we agree. Now what,
Speaker 2:So an M MOU is a memorandum of understanding and it's basically a fancy industry term for report that reflects the agreements that you've reached in mediation. So it's 10, usually like 10 to 15 pages, um, a full M mou and it covers for us sort of soup to nuts. So it covers basically your parenting plan, all of your finances, so what's happening with your, um, assets and your debt. So like your house and your 401ks and your credit card mortgage, who's paying for college, what's happening to your student loans, your bank accounts, your um, uh, cars, sort of anything and everything. Financial. And then also support. So it covers child support, which is mandated in the state of New Jersey. So, um, we help you figure out what those terms are gonna be and then if um, alimony now known as spousal support is warranted, then we help you, we helped you figure out what those terms were and that's in the agreement. Anything else that's important to you? So sometimes you want pets to be addressed in a certain way or you want a family heirloom to go to a certain person and you wanna make sure that's, uh, addressed and in writing. So it has anything regarding your divorce agreement in writing in this agreement mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And then you take that MOU to somebody, something called a review attorney. And a review attorney is a, a divorced attorney acting in a more limited role and they look at it and they say, okay, here's, here's my advice to you. This is in your best interest, you should be getting 10 years of alimony instead of eight years of alimony. And the person might say, I realize that, but um, the, it's fine. I don't need the extra two years of alimony. We've agreed to it, I've gotten other things that I didn't think I was gonna get. So I'm okay with the eight years. The lawyer will say, fine, uh, the lawyer will file all the paperwork in court for you and make sure that, um, you know, you're represented in court will go to court with you. So the m MOU gets you sort of 90% of the way and the review attorney gets you the other 10%. So it's the same thing. You cover all the same issues that you would if by using attorneys only, you just do it in a more cooperative way and it gets you very far into the process.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because there's some things that you can give up and there's some things that you can't, you know, like Missouri is a little bit different. You can give up alimony, which is maintenance or what somebody, one spouse pays the other, but you can never give up child support. You
Speaker 2:Can't New Jersey the same way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you can't negotiate it
Speaker 2:Because child support is the right of the child to have two parents financially support them, not necessarily have it, it's a little, um, confusing because one parent is paying the other parent, but really it's the, it's to go to the child's Ben benefit. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> not necessarily the other co-parents benefit. So parents think that they can negotiate that, but really it's the right of the child to have that, um, co parents support them.
Speaker 1:And, and I think it's a good, it's just a good point to make that like mediation is everybody agreeing to things, but when you have the mediator or you know, your lawyers that you might have as advisors, um, they're gonna be certain things that you just, you don't get to decide sometimes, you know, and they'll give you kind of the rubric of, of where your decisions go or, or can't. You know, in some cases somebody's not gonna write off that, oh, you can have the kids a hundred percent full custody, everything, just give me the house. Right? Like, we're not gonna be swapping kids, we're not gonna be swapping assets for kids. And the court can see when some of that is in the documents. So mediation is very much collaborative, but it's also like, it's, it's got its limitations because you still have, it's still a legal process to get divorced in most states. Yes. Um, but tell us a little bit about you because mediators are very different and I think that especially in divorce, um, you really need to know what you're doing in there and not everybody likes divorce. So tell us more about, maybe a little bit more about your backstory, um, and how you started, you got into this because you were a therapist. Yes. And you, were you just seeing like people getting divorced and it was a hot mess or what
Speaker 2:<laugh>? So, um, I've been a therapist. I always worked at nonprofits and one of the nonprofits I worked at got involved in a new program for high conflict post divorce couples. So these were the couples that were going to court because one parent wanted them play hockey and the other parent wanted to play soccer. And the judge is like, uh, you decide like why, why am I, uh, forced to decide this? So it was the same couples constantly going back to court. The judges were getting tired of seeing them. So they came up with this program and I was in charge of that program. So I saw these high conflict post divorce couples and then, um, I heard about mediation and I thought, oh my goodness, I can help people before they get to that point. They don't have to be the post divorce high conflict couples. I can help them before and come up with an agreement. So they never reach that point. So it was just a really good fit for my personal philosophy of how, um, I, I think the process should go. So Randy, my, my partner, um, said she was doing this Westfield mediation and we should join forces. She's a lawyer, I'm a, uh, therapist. And I said, that's a great idea. So we, we created Westfield Mediation and we focus solely on divorce mediation. It's all we do. We're one of the few people in New Jersey that solely focus on divorce mediation. A lot of people are attorneys who also do mediation or therapists or financial advisors or whatever you may be who also do mediation, but we do only mediation. So we're pretty unique in that way. Um, and we help couples reach agreement. Like I said, we cover it all, whatever you want in your divorce agreement.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Like I, and I think that more people are starting to understand, um, mediation process. I will say, um, a lot of mediators are mental health professionals as well as attorneys, as well as financial professionals. And I think if you bring together a good group of those people, um, for your, in your area, I think you have the makings of a decision process that you have more control over and maybe more control over the costs too. Um, but they can definitely reach out to you specifically in New Jersey. Um, I would assume that even around your area, if somebody reached out to you and you weren't the right fit, you would know other mediators that could Yeah. And, and refer'em. I mean, I think mediators are really just trying to get more people to do this process this way. Um, and so, you know, we cross refer and, oh, get somebody in your air, you know, sometimes you wanna sit down with them, you wanna like have that person to person. A lot of it's being done online. Do you see more in person or online nowadays
Speaker 2:A little bit more in person than certainly before covid, we were all in person. Um, but, and then in Covid we were all online. Uh, and now people do wanna come into the office and we welcome them back, uh, if they so want to. But still for the convenience of it still people, some people are still choosing to do, uh, online and that's fine too. We offer both. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, some of the mis some of some of the benefits of mediation is that it creates more of this, um, positive experience after you're done with it so that you can co-parent more effectively. It is, it is really a big step in that direction. Um, because you know, we, I I always say we see people kind of at their a, a low point in their lives mm-hmm.<affirmative> the year they get divorced, they're gonna look back and say, Ugh, that wasn't such a great year in my life. Right. But we help them get to a better place, um, and that they can coexist, they can sort of see the light, uh, while they're going through this process and they're different at the end of this process from when they started for sure. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And you also mentioned how economical it is. It is much more economical to use a mediator than two divorce attorneys. You are getting things done much faster paying one professional to, to uh, have this process rather than two separate ones communicating solely with each other where the divorce attorneys are talking to each other, then go back to the client, and then the client talks to their own divorce, divorce attorney who then talks to the other divorce attorney and it sort of goes up and around. Whereas when the three of us are meeting, you're having direct conversations with the, uh, co-parent and that helps you again after the mediation is done. You've already started those, uh, methods of communicating with your co-parent in, in a different way than you did as husband and wife. So
Speaker 1:Well, and even a lot, I mean, even if you can't agree to everything in the divorce, the parenting plan for sure, because that is specific to both of you. And so if you can advocate for yourself and you can be like, listen, I just wanna say what's important to me, you know, I think that that's a great way to use a mediator. And in some states, you know, we're right next to Illinois and in Illinois in a lot of states are doing this. In order to talk to the judge if there is a a child custody issue, you have to go to two hours of mediation before you get to talk to the judge. And so, and some people are just treating that as like, oh, that's two hours. I'll just go do my time and then go to the judge. But if you use that time wisely, you could use it just for the parenting. Like just give it the parenting plan a try, right. And then, oh, okay, maybe this mediator helped. Okay. Maybe you can take it a little bit further. Um, but it is you advocating for what you want for you and your children or you and your family dynamic, um, when you come into mediation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think through mediation, people realize how much they do agree on, like, uh, usually even in litigated cases, they're usually only li you know, they're only arguing about a, a few points and mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, they really agree about 90% of the issues can get resolved and communicated and agreed upon. So that happens in mediation all the time. And then once you realize, oh, well we're working together and we're agreeing on this because in mediation we point out what you agree on in litigation, they point out what you don't agree on. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So the agreed upon points are a large majority of the, uh, process. And then it makes those few sticky points easier to manage because you've already realized how much you do agree on
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and you might be okay with like Johnny continuing hockey, but you also might wanna say, if Johnny says I don't wanna play hockey, what is the process then to stop hockey? Right? Like you can still have, hey, we will then even if you talk about what you're going to do to solve it in the future, even if it's not like this is the solve, but it's like, we're gonna talk about it. Johnny's gonna have a se you know, like you've at least enunciate how the intention. Yeah. And in some cases, like the parenting plan is all intention. We intend to do some of these things, but we know when we get there it's gonna take additional conversations kind thing. Right. Yeah, sure. Well, this has been so helpful. Do you have any other suggestions for anybody if they're dealing with a parenting plan? Or do you offer like an hour or a half an hour kind of introductory call if people have some questions?
Speaker 2:Sure. People can always gimme a call. I'd be happy to talk to anybody. Um, there's my number, 9 0 8 9 1 3 0 3 7 3. We're in New Jersey. And I'd be happy to, uh, you know, explain more in depth about how this whole process works and talk about, you know, how, how you can move forward with mediation.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well thank you so much, Michelle. Um, I'm sure we'll have some more questions in the future talking about mediation and divorce and, uh, maybe we'll have you back as a
Speaker 2:Guest. Wonderful. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:All right. Thank you.
Speaker 2:You're welcome.