Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Mediator Podcast .com - Mediation, Negotiation & Collaboration
Mediation Settlement Negotiations: Dealing with Emotional Stress
Hi, welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg and I'm a valuation expert and mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. I specialize in divorce and partner disputes.
Today we will discuss issues around mediation, settlement negotiations, and dealing with emotional stress. In the mediation, I'm going to be speaking with another mediator and negotiation coach, Alice Shikina, who's based in California. She has a tremendous amount of emotional intelligence and empathy that she uses to successfully mediate case after case. She also has a very unique background with over 20 years of theater experience.
1. How do you tune into clients’ emotions to produce a successful negotiation outcome?
2. How do you handle parties who are very pessimistic about settlement?
3. What do you do when parties seemingly want very different things?
4. Perspective is very important. Tell us more about this.
5. What part do emotions play in settlement?
6. What are clear communication strategies used in dispute settlements?
7. How does a negotiation coach prepare clients before a settlement dispute or negotiation?
8. About Alice Shikina and mediation - mediator and negotiation coach focusing on emotional stress
9. What should clients look for in a mediator or negotiation coach?
Melissa Gragg
CVA, MAFF, CDFA
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC
melissa@bridgevaluation.com
http://www.BridgeValuation.com
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com
https://www.valuationmediation.com
Cell: (314) 541-8163
Alice Shikina
Shikina Mediation and Arbitration
415-793-8729
alice.shikina@gmail.com
www.shikinamediation.com
Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gregg and I'm evaluation expert and mediator in St. Louis, Missouri. I specialize in divorce and partner disputes. Today we will discuss issues around mediation, settlement negotiations, and dealing with emotional stress. In the mediation, I'm gonna be speaking with another mediator and negotiation coach, Alice Shakina, who's based in California. She has a tremendous amount of emotional intelligence and empathy that she uses to successfully mediate Case after case. She also has a very unique background with over 20 years of theater experience. So welcome Alice, how are you?
Speaker 2:Good. Thanks for having me Melissa. I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 1:I love this. So there's a lot of people that talk about mediation, but I think that how you talk about it is very helpful. It kind of cuts through and mediation is a little bit of the wild west, but I also think that you had an interesting background. So maybe you could tell us like your maybe twisted path on uh, to mediation.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely Melissa. So my background is in theater specifically as an actress. So I actually have a BFA in acting and then I went on to do some master's work in directing. And the reason why I talk about that is because they directly inform my practice. Um, what you learn, I just wanna talk a little bit about this for your audience members who aren't very familiar with acting training. So if you actually go to acting training to become a professional actor, you're not just like, okay, let me just put on a role and be this character. You actually start far, far before that and you start learning to read the emotions of your partner. And so you work with uh, a partner frequently and you, you know, do these exercises and you really need to understand like what's happening with them, how am I affecting them, how are they feeling in this moment? Because the next moment could be different, literally second by second. Like I might do something and it'll make you giggle and then I might continue to speak and then maybe I say something insulting and within three seconds you're already having a different emotional reaction. And so we are learning to read all of these micro signs on what's happening with the emotional levels of the people we work with. And so in my mediations, I'm always doing the same thing. I'm reading the room, reading the emotions, and I'm trying to read between the lines to try to understand what they're saying and what is beneath what they're saying.
Speaker 1:Oh,
Speaker 2:So it real. So usually when people come into a mediation, they're very nervous and anxious, right? And so I think it's really important to meet them where they are. Don't ignore that, right? Because people are coming in and they're sort of holding themselves together professionally underneath that river. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> like the undercurrent is nervousness, anxiety, stress, what have you. And so I show up and I'm trying to alleviate that because I know going in that is what they're feeling. I don't have to necessarily in that particular instance call it out, but I try to make them feel more relaxed and more at ease. And so if it's a really, really contentious case, I will meet with them separately. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and this is a really, really important tactic and strategy because this is the place where A, I can build some trust with them. B, they're able to be honest about their fears, their concerns, and they can just let it all out. They can say, I'm really upset because this and that and I'm stressed out and I'm worried about this is gonna happen. Or they're narcissistic and they're gonna go in and they're going to bully me in the mediation. Like they can tell me everything. And I hold all of that in confidence, right? And so I, I sit there with them and I'm able to reduce that level of anxiety before we ever start a joint session. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, right? And it, it doesn't happen like right before it happens maybe a few days before where I have like one hour with each side. The other thing that I do because I am a negotiation coach is that while I'm doing that separate session, I might help them with their negotiation strategies so that they can wrap their brain around how they need to prepare before they go into the session. Hmm. And so I give them a lot of tips on like think about what it is that you need, think about what it is the other side will want or you think will ask for. Think about things that you can concede. That you can easily concede and think about things that you can trade. Like if you were to give this thing up and you can ask for that. And I really try to help them get to a place where they feel like it's a win-win. And I know that a lot of old school mediation, um, trainers say Look, a really good, um, settlement is one where both sides feels like, oh, I lost a lot, but we got to a settlement. I don't subscribe to that way of thinking. I believe that there are win-wins everywhere even when people are very contentious. Because usually the more things that you can think of that you want to gain from the other side and the more things that you feel like you can concede to the other side, you can actually craft really creative resolutions where it is a win-win. It might not be a financial win for one side, but maybe for that side it's an emotional win. Right? And so there are many ways so that you can have both parties walk out feeling like, oh my goodness, this is like a really good day. I got a settlement that I feel like is really good. And it requires prepping them. It also requires reframing in the middle of the, you know, mediations. I'm frequently reframing what the issue really is and then getting them to a place where they feel like, yes, I'm gonna say yes to this and I feel like it's a win-win.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Well and I think that even, you know, it builds trust. You are trying to get in there and have some there, there's certain people that certain times that where people will disclose the information together and there's certain times that they'll hold it back. And so I feel like knowing some of those things. But one thing that we encounter a lot is that if you don't know about mediation, but you know your scenario, you're like, there's no way it could settle. Like I already, and, and so you know, I'll be like, Hey, have you considered mediation? And they'll be like, no, there's no way. And so I've had to start to kind of help educate people that maybe it is.
Speaker 2:So the most important thing in getting to a settlement is your mindset. Okay, I wanna say that again. Your mindset is the most important thing to get to a settlement. So if you go in and you tell yourself this is not going to settle, there's no way it's going to settle, then you are going to be making micro-decisions throughout the entire process. Like every time you have a micro decision to go left or right, you're going to take the one that's going to lead you further and further away from settlement. But if you tell yourself, even if you don't believe it, say it out loud, I'm gonna get to settlement, we're gonna get to a settlement, we're going to get to a settlement. Tell yourself all the day, whole day before leading up to it. Right? And if you can train your brain to think that way, when you're making all of the different decisions throughout the course of the mediation, you're going to lead to the one where there's the gold, there's a settlement, you're going to get there. You can't get there if you don't believe in yourself. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Right? And so I always say that's really important. Now yes. Do I deal with people who are pessimistic? Absolutely. Have I gotten them to a settlement? Absolutely. And they are like open mouths at the end saying like, what did you do? How did you do this? And it's because I reframe for them what the issue really is. For example, I had a very contentious landlord tenant case come in and they both said, look, we've been fighting, we don't think that it's going to settle in mediation, but the court has ordered us to go through mediation. We're gonna do it just to check the box. We're just doing it and we're, and we're gonna go to trial. Okay, great. So I sat down and the, and the one side sat down and they said, okay, well we're gonna have you outta here. This is a landlord, we're gonna have you outta here. I'm gonna get like lawyers fees imposed on you. You're totally wrong. Everything. He said his piece. And then they left the room so that I could speak just to the, the tenants. It was a mother and her adult daughter. And one of the first things I asked them, well they were like, oh, he's such a bully. He's been doing this for the past few months, whatnot. I asked them, I just would like to know how is your like mental and emotional and physical health doing right now? And they started to cry and they told me like, it's terrible. We have headaches. We're having stress. Like they had a long list of physical ailments, um, that were happening due to this, you know, conflict. And so I asked them, what would it take for you to remove yourself from this to toxic environment? So I didn't say move out, I said, just to remove yourself from this kind of environment. And the woman said, I need to move out. She goes, I could be out in 30 days. And I said, well that's kind of quick. Are you sure? Cause I don't want you to sign any agreement that you can't meet the timeline. She said, no, I have, I have a place. She goes, and we'll be out and we'll pay the rent, but we'll be out in 30 days. And this happened in like a 45 minute like mediation. I went outside to the lawyer and the landlord, I said, by the way, your tenant will be out in 30 days and she's going to pay the rent. And they said, what did you tell them? Like what happened? And I said, I worked my magic, but the magic that I worked is I reframed what is important. Like is it really important to fight with this landlord and get whatever you feel like is yours or is it important to keep your health intact? Mm-hmm.<affirmative> because without your health, what do you have? And so when I ask them this, that's what they chose. And you know what Melissa, what's interesting is some people can say, well Alice, but the settlement, you know, they lost cuz they had to move. That woman came over and thanked me and she said, you are an angel. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, it's because the mindset, I just shifted the mindset. So she saw what's more important to her in reality. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and the reality was her health and she had the ability to move somewhere else and she chose it. I didn't say, you need to move out, you know, I just asked her, what do you need to do to gain your health back? And she made the decision to move and she made the decision to move in 30 days.
Speaker 1:Right. Well and you did shift it to what are you going to do as opposed to are you going to let them do it? You know, like do you want to do what they say? Right. Because it is a shift of like control of, and negotiation is control of what you have control over. Right. But when you're dealing with some people, they tend to want completely different things. And so I think that that's a hard part of mediation. You know, one person, there's one apple, you know that like they use a lot of the apple and orange, but there's one apple and everybody wants it and nobody wants the orange. You know, like how do you deal with them, them when they want different things?
Speaker 2:So I really try to train people to think in a different way. So even in the mediation process, I'm training them to think a different way. And so I will sit there and ask one side what they want. I ask the other side what it is that they want and then I present, here are the things that all the parties would like. And then I ask another question, I say, how can we achieve all of this?
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 2:Then what I do is I put the parties on one side and the issues on the other side of the table that makes them become problem solvers. They're no longer just a participant in their own drama. They're now problem solving. Right? This is like, you know, high level stuff. Like let's get together, we are a team. Okay, granted we're not getting along but we are now a team of two and we need to problem solve and here are the issues. Well you have to think really, really creatively when you want very different things. Like most recently it was like, oh I want you to, I wanna move away. And the other said, other parents said, no, you can't move away because I wanna see my children. So those are very, very different things. They came in extremely contentious because they felt like if one of us loses the other side's getting nothing. Right. And so I put the issues out there and I said, what can you do to make both of these, you know, equitable? And what was interesting is each side started giving concessions so that they could get to their side. So now suddenly you have two or more options because both parties are conceding a lot of things to make their um, the thing that they want more palatable to the other side. And what was very interesting about what happened with this move, you know, move out mediation, is that suddenly the person who wanted to move couldn't make a choice because she had two really strong options.
Speaker 1:Hmm. Oh hard choice, right?<laugh>. Yeah. Well and I, and I think that that is a key, you know, what you're talking about is perspective. And when somebody can view the same situation in two different ways, you know, my kids said something yesterday that somebody was a liar and I was like, but are they, if they perceived the same reality different then you perceived it, isn't it still their truth? And the my kid was like, what?<laugh>? But talk more about like perspective and how your view of this, you know, like mediation is not somebody telling you what to do. Mediation is being active in the solution. So seeing things in a positive way when we're used to seeing them in a negative way is sometimes difficult. You have to shift it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And that's sort of why I do the exercise I just talked about, which is when I asked them, can you come up with some solutions that would solve for all of this? I love the fact that you used the, you know, your child and a liar thing. Cuz in mediation I tell people don't use lie liar or lying. I said instead please use the phrase I have a different perspective. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. And the reason why I do that is because when people use those words, it automatically triggers the other side. And now they're not in a listening like mode anymore. Mm-hmm<affirmative> like it turns their defensive modes kick in immediately. It's like a switch, right? You just flip the switch, say you're liar and now the switch is flipped. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and now the person can't listen so they can't comprehend. And so communication stops. And so I try to get people to not flip that switch and just say I have different perspective. And believe it or not, nobody gets triggered by that. And so they're like, oh okay. And then they listen and then you keep that and then they're able to listen to someone else's perspective. Because it is framed as my perspective, it is not framed as you're lying. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, right? Because if I'm accused of lying, all my defenses go up and I can't hear what their perspective is. So I feel like it's very important when we're communicating to try to keep the lines of communication as open as possible. Which includes saying I've got a different perspective, can I share that with you?
Speaker 1:Right. Right.
Speaker 2:And I also do that when I do caucusing. If it gets a little, if it gets like five degrees warmer in the room temperature-wise with emotions, I'll say let's go into separate rooms. We go into separate rooms and then I'll hear different people's perspectives and I'm able to bring it back and present it for two reasons. One, they're in the listening mode cuz they're in a different room. And two, it's coming from a neutral party, the mediator. Right? So I believe mediators have that power to go in and present a different perspective from the other side. Now it shouldn't really be your side because you're neutral every once in a while might say, objectively looking at this, it looks like this. But I try not to insert myself and I try to say I'm a neutral person and I'm presenting the perspective of the other side and they're able to listen to it because they're in a different room and they have the safe space to be able to act out, roll their eyes, do whatever, and then ultimately like understand the other side's perspective.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm<affirmative>. But the reason why, and this is, I use this all the time in mediation too, is I'm like, you know, you could say that to your spouse and they're gonna be like, jump in a river. I could say it and they'll be like, okay, so and that's because I'm not emotionally involved. Like I don't have those deep traumas. I don't have those memories of, you know, know conversations or rudeness. But what part, you know, so, so in some context you have to get over or through that. Right. Or around it or jump on like we have to do, we have to address it in some capacity or else we typically can't get to that settlement because that it, it is a stumbling block. So what part do emotions play in the settlement process? Right. In mediation.
Speaker 2:So they play a huge role and I do work with a law firm where we actually are prepping them from early, early on in the litigation to be ready for settlement because of the fact that if you don't do the client control and you let their emotions and get the best of'em and you allow them to believe that the litigation can continue based on how they are feeling emotionally, you as an attorney might end up in a bad spot where your clients are asking for way more than you think is feasible in a case, but you can't get them like under control because you didn't start, you know, getting'em under control early on, right? Mm-hmm<affirmative>. So like pretty much as soon as you start building that relationship with your clients or in mediation, you wanna get them to a place of their emotions or calm or at least you can tell them early on like by the way, like this is sort of what you need to expect. So if you do it early on the emotions, what you need to do is give them what they need to expect so that you can control their emotions from early on. Once they're in a mediation, I really try to make sure that the room is very cool, like cool in terms in terms of emotional temperature. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and I let them know this room, this joint room, this joint session is a place where I want everyone to feel like they're calm, they feel like they can think through things and I let them know here are the times that we need to go into a caucus or separate session. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, I let them know when we get to an impasse, I'm gonna ask you to please split up. And also I may not be able to tell that you are feeling any strong emotions, upset, angry, frustrated, all of these things because you have a very good poker face. You might be looking like really calm, really professional, but they might be like spinning out in their minds. I said, if you start to feel any of these things or if you start to feel your heart is racing, it's getting difficult to breathe. So I give them a lot of physical signs to think about as well as emotional signs to think about. I said you just need to say Alice, I need to speak with you privately. So that's like our safe term, right? Yes. That's what they call it. Right?<laugh>. And so they will use that. They use and I think that they're very appreciative that they have that tool and we go in and frequently they'll go into another room and just break down crying cuz they're holding onto it, trying not to show that to the other, other side. And once they break down crying, that's step one. Step two, they let me know everything about what's going on with their thoughts, their feelings, why they're frustrated, everything. And then once we do that, they start their temperature starts to come down, down, down. We talk a little bit. I go over like, well maybe you can negotiate this, we can negotiate that. Once we get there, eventually they're like, okay, I'm ready to go back together and have a joint session. So I'm constantly monitoring the emotional heat in the room. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and I do not let people like go all crazy. Like some people tell me some meat eaters say, oh my goodness, like they were yelling at each other, I don't let it get there. Mm-hmm The only time it gets there is if they go from zero to 100. But if they go there then I'm like, okay stop. You have to stop right now. Like you can't do this. Mm-hmm. So I do not have like highly charged in emotional mediations. Not because those people don't show up, but because I stop them, I let them know before you get there we need to go into a caucus.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I think it is establishing the boundaries and the, the rubric of the mediation. I also think that we're all grown professionals and so to talk to me like I am a child and say hey we're gonna have um, nice langu, you know, like I think sometimes mediators will get into that pandering or that kind of, you know, talking to people like they're the parent child situation. And I think that for the most part in mediation, just establishing what is more clear communication strategies. Because a lot of these people have not just in general, if you're in a dispute situation, you may not have the best communication skills. Right? Yes. You can't enunciate what you want or you can't stop talking. Right. And so I think in, in, in some of those cases, you know, it's how do you, how do you get somebody to raise up and how do you get somebody to fall down in those and establish the boundaries as opposed to like, you're in time out now. You know? Cuz that's what they're used to. So people don't know what to expect really.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a couple things, like one of the things I do let them know is that I want them to have a conversation. So I'm like, if it's your turn to talk, like don't go over 10 minutes. I'm like keep it around five but don't, because sometimes people will talk for 30 if you don't set the boundaries right. And you say, okay Melissa, tell me your side and all of a sudden you're off to the races talking for half an hour. So I let them know from the beginning, that is not allowed here. Right. And so we go about with that. And then I always utilize the mirroring technique when I'm sensing that people aren't able to hear each other. So I don't do it like, as a matter of course because I want to get, I wanna help people as quickly as they can. So I will ask people, Hey can you like let me know what it is that you heard from the other side. Mm-hmm<affirmative> when it's like the emotions are running because I need to make sure that those switches did not get flipped off. Right. And so that actually helps tremendously. And the reason why I'm telling you this and the reason why I know this is because usually during the times that I'm noticing like I don't know if communication's happening, let me ask, they usually look at me and they're like, I'm sorry I can't repeat back anything cuz I didn't hear anything<laugh>,
Speaker 1:Nothing, nothing. And I'm like, you didn't hear what it's like and I do this with my kids. And I was like, what did you just hear? And they're like, you were talking about milk. And I was like, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. No,
Speaker 1:You were thinking about milk
Speaker 2:<laugh>,
Speaker 1:That person was awesome time.
Speaker 2:It happens all the time. And the other person is always shocked. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, they're always like, you didn't hear anything. I said, you just sat there and you listened to me. But they're in their heads, they're thinking about whatever they're thinking about, they're freaking out, they're stressed out, whatever. Right? And so I always say like, can you just like, let me know what it is that you heard. Once we can tell that there was no communication, we go back and then we make sure that the communication happens. We kind of repeat that whole thing again. Like rinse, watch, repeat,<laugh>. Like can you say it again Melissa? Okay. Can you now repeat back what it is that you heard? Okay, now we're clear. Now we're good. But guess what? When the person is repeating back what they heard accurately, their emotions are tamped down. You cannot comprehend what somebody is saying when you're like super emotional. It's just not gonna happen. Like your brain doesn't function that way. And so by asking them to listen carefully, cuz I'm gonna go back and say what it is that you heard, I'm keeping their emotions like down. I'm holding them down.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Well, and this brings up an interesting topic. We didn't, we didn't discuss before this, but in, in when your emotions are heightened and you have a hard time communicating and then you don't do, uh, conflict well and then you don't process information quickly. I think that that is why people need to get prepared for mediation because, and you have to understand how you process information. If you need to process it and then make decisions, then you need to have a different level of preparedness, you know, than somebody who can make decisions very quickly. And you typically have two different communication styles in the parties. So one's like, let's go fast. And the other's like, whoa, I need to slow down. You know, how can, because part of you being a negotiation coach is helping people prep for this situation. Tell us more about how you do that. Like what is your role coming in? Because I prep my clients for most of the negotiations. If we're on one side always, we always do a run through of every me meeting. And it may be overkill, but it's overkill for me. It's not overkill for them.<laugh>, they need it every time.<laugh>. Right. You know. So talk more about what that, why would being prepared help you in mediation?
Speaker 2:Y You mean why preparing the clients? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So surprisingly many people actually don't know the specifics of what they want. Right? I have people who come to me and they say, I just want what's fair. Yes. Okay, what exactly is that? What is fair? Like what's fair to you and what's fair to the other person is different. It is completely a subjective word,
Speaker 1:Right? No. And, and in court, in trial, in litigation, do you know what fair is the F word?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Nothing is ever fair. It is reasonable. It is, it is rational, but it will probably never be
Speaker 2:Fair or it will never feel fair.
Speaker 1:Never.
Speaker 2:Right? Because what, there's a spectrum of fair, you can fall anywhere on there. And so I really try to prep them on what do you want? Like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't tell me you want what's fair, what do you want specifically? And when I ask that, there is always a very long pause because they actually haven't thought that deeply about it. And so when I'm prepping them and I, I'll be negotiation coaching on both sides, I'll say, think about what you want. It's so important to note very specifically what do you want, what are you okay conceding? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, what is your bottom line? And even even people say, this is my bottom line, guess what Melissa, and you probably know this, everybody moves off of that if they have to. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Okay. Even if they say this is my lowest number, I'm not going any lower than that. If they had to drop just slightly on under it to get it done and it's like 10 hours into the mediation they'll drop, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, there's never like a, a a put a pin in it. Um, well
Speaker 1:And sophisticated business people, they're going to negotiate. They're not even gonna tell their attorney. They're not gonna tell their mediator. They're not gonna tell anybody what their bottom line is because they're used to this negotiation that you never say bottom line until you're there. Right. And that is old school negotiation
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Right? Right. And so I prep them to think about everything that like the whole thing. I also prep them to think like, what do you think the other side is going to say? And then they have to think about and they say, well I think they'll say this. Or I think they'll say that. Okay, what will you say in response? Right? Be prepared to respond so that you're not responding on the fly. I know it's like normal that everyone's responding on the fly, but guess what? You have a leg up if you have your responses prepared. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative>. No. Right. I totally, totally agree. And um, here is some information about how to reach out to you because you do have a mediation company and you do specialize in mediation. Um, you wanna tell people, uh, what like, typical clients would come to you cuz I do divorce and I know a lot about divorce mediation, but there's a million different mediation things that, that are, you know, dispute resolution that can be used in a lot of different capacities. Where are, where's your focus?
Speaker 2:I do a lot of divorce mediations, but surprisingly a lot of family mediations come to me as well because they might say, um, I'm estranged from my dad. Uh, we had a falling out a few years ago. I really wanna like rebuild that relationship, but I have no idea how to restart this conversation. Um, I've had people get married and then they got estranged from their parents because of the husband or their wife and they're trying to rebuild that relationship. So a lot of family conflicts come my way. Um, I do landlord tenant, neighbor to neighbor, um, breach of contract cases and even probate because probate sort of falls and um, and estate planning stuff falls into families mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So when families are in conflict and they can't get on the same page, um, about even putting an estate plan together or maybe something's going through probate and they're fighting about it, uh, those are all fantastic, um, mediations for me because they are high in emotions and I specialize in keeping everyone's very high emotions low so that you can think through things.
Speaker 1:Well. And one thing that we have seen quite a bit with families, we've actually seen a lot of families in commercial litigation, um, around a business issue, around a family held business. You know, that's been very successful. And I think that those types of situations are very, um, workable with a mediator. Like there's been so many times I'm like, why your family? Like, you don't have to like each other, but like literally same with divorce, like the money's coming out of one pot, why do you guys wanna hire a million different people to do this process? Like you can get one mediator. But I would say I think finding a mediator that is creative and really knows that genre of mediation, I think is important because there are nuances of psychology and strategy for each of those different pieces. And I think it is good knowing somebody that's a little bit deeper if that's an important thing for you. Like if it's, if it's their first time mediating something of that level, I, I would be a little concerned because you can be led astray by, you know, like there isn't any formal process for mediators. Like what do we have to do to be qualified as a mediator?
Speaker 2:Well, you have to take a certification course, it's a 40 hour certification course. Um, and then there are always advanced courses that different mediators, uh, around the country, uh, present. And so you can take specialized mediation certifications based on what you would like to mediate. So that's anyone that's interested in becoming a mediator, yes, you absolutely can be a mediator. You don't have to be an attorney and you can just go and find a place to go get certified. Take your 40 hour certification. There are different ways of training because there's three different types of mediations. Um, and so different, um, institutions teach the mediation training slightly different based on that. Um, but yeah, but they're, don't
Speaker 1:You teach some stuff because like, I'm always paying attention to what you say because it's really, in my mind it's prolific in that it's making a deeper, like mediation can be really surfaced and I think it's successful, but when you take it a little bit deeper into the psyche of what's happening in the dispute, I think you can reach a settlement quicker. And, and you, and you do, it seems like you do miracles. Like one of our clients was like, I think we're gonna have a Christmas miracle. And I was like, you're right, you may, because like literally you were all gonna kill each other last month and now you're, you know, like you're remembering your grandparents, your parents, your uncles, your, like, they, you're all connected. And I think there is something to be said about that, but when you're so far in a dispute, you can't see the possibility. So planting the seed, if, if we only do one thing and plant the seed that mediation is a possibility, I think then it's just connecting with, and, and I don't think you should find somebody necessarily in your area. I think you should find somebody that can even do it online. Because sometimes you don't wanna be in the same room. Sometimes people aren't even in the same area. Right. And, and find somebody who you think is actually gonna settle it. Ask them, ask them, how many cases do you get settled? And if they say, well, you know, some settle and some don't, I would walk away and I'm being honest, and this is why I put this at the very end because nobody wants my fricking honesty. But I will tell you my only goal is to settle a hundred percent settlement.
Speaker 2:And you know, I, I settle almost all of my cases difficult. Almost
Speaker 1:All.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Almost all of them. Right? Um, and I work really hard to get them there, right. Because it, it takes a lot of patience and people recognize that. People are like, you're really patient. And I'm like, that's what it takes to get you over the finish line, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna get you over the finish line. So I think someone that is like willing to put in the effort and energy it takes to get it settled, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and someone who has emotional intelligence without that it's really, really difficult. Um, I think when you have highly contentious cases, if you don't, if you're not patient and you don't have the emotional intelligence of that, you're pretty, pretty much gonna be like, I don't wanna do this kind of work. Right? Because it takes, you gotta put in that time with the people mm-hmm.<affirmative> and you have to make sure that you are, you're kind of like their emotional Sherpa<laugh>. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. You're guiding them and it's like, you know, the forest of emotions and you're like, go this way, go this way. And you know, yeah. Get them out. And all of a sudden it's the feel and the rainbow and the sun. Yeah. I mean literally I feel like I guide them through some of the most tumultuous times, but like I'm telling them, you can trust me, I will get you to the other side.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, and when we talk about financial issues that are very gray and there's no right or wrong, I usually, and we, when we separate sometimes and I'll be like, listen, how many times have you told that story? And they'll be like, what? I'm like, how many times have you told that story? That story? Cause exact same story cuz you've told me that once before and now I've heard it the second time. When are you gonna change that story? And they're just like, what? I was like, we have the opportunity now to change the story, change the narrative. If you want to change the narrative, what would the narrative look like? And I think that that is, you know, like mediation isn't coming up with some creative way to screw happy. It's like we're looking at places like, oh, did you look at that? Like, you could all be happy if you looked at there and you're like, oh, we could, you know, like it's just understanding. And a lot of times it's just because I've seen a lot of different ways that it got solved, right? And so it's not like I'm creating some new brilliant way. It's like, oh, mix this with that one splash of this and it's a concoction that's like, hey, this would work. But I think reaching out most of the time, I think most mediators will do an in, uh, a I do like a pre-meeting of like, Hey, let's make sure this is right. You, you know, like, or if they call and they like, want some service, I was like, Hey, why don't you pitch this to your spouse? Do it together. Call me back with both of you on the line and I'll give you all the information together. And they're like, okay, maybe that could work. I'm like, try it. If not, then come back and just hire me separate. But most of the time, like, do you, if somebody were to reach out to you from this, would you talk to them for a little bit to understand if it's the right mediation for you?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So I offer free consultations that people can schedule themselves online. And typically I'll speak with one side, but I, but I do speak with both of them. I just don't necessarily require that they speak to me together. Right. Because sometimes people might be like, well, I have some questions I wanna ask you. I don't wanna ask in front of my spouse. So they'll talk to me for maybe 15 minutes and then I say, if you'd like to use me, please introduce me to the other side. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and I'll schedule a call with them as well. So everybody gets their 15 minutes of free time with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I usually will send out an email that's basically like, here's the process, you know, like forward it in totality to your spouse or your, you know, fam that's fighting. And I think that, um, well this has been amazing. I think that there's a couple things at the very beginning that I, I really want, uh, to highlight. So we'll probably be putting this out in a couple different segments. But, um, I appreciate it and we'd love to have you back just talking about strategy and negotiation skills. We didn't even talk about like anchoring or any of those great concepts. So we have plenty to talk about. But thank you, Alice. You're amazing and I hope people, if you want a great mediator or coach, please call Alice. She's amazing.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Melissa. It was so awesome being here with you. I really appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 1:Fun, fun. All right, see you soon.